I can agree with a lot of what you say -- I don't think I'd ever pay more than $100 for a console game, my acceptable price point is around $80 for something great. I generally wait a while and pick things up on special, when the rush is over. I need to be patient, but that's no real problem...
My attitude exactly - though there are one or two game franchises I won't wait long for (Whereforeart thou Diablo III?
However I can't agree with your point about lack of affordability leading to piracy -- there are a lot of things I can't afford, even today I couldn't afford some of the things I wanted (specifically cashews, stone fruit and avocados:) so I am doing without. I can't make the jump from 'hey, avocados are over-priced at the momentt' to 'I'll just stuff this avocado down my trousers.' There are some things I'll never be able to afford (a new car, a nice house, for instance) and I can't afford to buy new, high-priced games. That's life. Luckily there are cheaper alternatives which don't involve outright theft.[/quote]
Sorry - I wasn't trying to imply that everyone who can't afford a piece of software is going to go out and grab a pirate copy instead, rather that it's been my experience that most of those that are in it for the purpose of obtaining and USING the software, at least started out doing it because they found something they wanted too expensive. I like your avocado analogy, though I'm not a fan of that nasty green paste inside them myself, but I still stick to my point - software IS a different beast, you're talking about something that has no physical form. I'm sure I will be able to come up with a different analogy to illustrate what I mean, but I'm too tired to think of one right now!
QUOTE
I see your point about the higher price of console games, despite the lower chance of piracy. It does seem that the price is set that high precisely because piracy is unlikely, so you either pay up or do without, rather that what the games folks maintain -- that piracy drives up the price. Hmm. However I'd rather see the market determine the prices -- too expensive for everybody, and the price would soon come down.[/quote]
Interesting too that the "you cant copy console games" attitude seems to prevail despite the fact that it IS possible to pirate console games - just look at all the PS3 USB dongles on trademe, or check the torrent sites for console games, for example. Anyone remember mod-chips for the original PS and Xboxes? Its maybe not as common as with PCs, but it's definitely happening. Yet you can even TRADE console games you've "finished", and you can RENT THEM from the video store as though they're wrapped in impregnable defences....
QUOTE
The original linked discussion does tend to highlight that fact that the games market is a lot different from the niche simulation market. Two entirely different things, with two entirely different costing issues. If you spend two years and $50 million developing a game, and sell 7 millions copies at US$50, you probably make a good profit, a lot of which can be used to produce the next great game. (but there's a risk that it will fail dismally...) If you spend the same amount of time -- but a lot less money -- to develop a good sim addon, you might find a few thousand customers at the very most. If I had all the FSX owners to sell to, I'd be able to sell scenery for 50 cents (factoring in marketing and distribution costs, my take might be closer to 5 cents...) but if I'm lucky I might find 500 customers. No commonality there -- entirely different economies of scale.[/quote]
And yet, counter to my (admittedly limited) understanding of economic theory, the ones with the larger scale sell for a much higher unit price? Not sure how that works...! Even if you factor in the fact that a typical blockbuster franchise release may have been in the works for a couple of years, and had a team of 50+ working on it, the scale is THAT MUCH bigger, that it still seems ridiculous that you pay so much more.
And of course, I see your point about sim addons being a totally different beast to, say, a major FPS game release. Perhaps its like comparing Avocados to bottles Milk or something, but still...
Posted:
Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:13 amby Ian Warren
ZK-MAT wrote:a hobby orchard of 200 avocado trees.
Avocado
Yummy ... avocado/apricot pasta on chicken ..or thin sliced beef
, i would pay for them Matt .. bring em home ..... any thing is worth something and it was a mission to teach downloading games /software/movies is the thing not to do , you pay for what you get , to many cheapskates Pity for them , away from that - looking at the recent screens .. this really is FSE , now back to them avocado trees.
Posted:
Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:54 amby toprob
QUOTE
Interesting too that the "you cant copy console games" attitude seems to prevail despite the fact that it IS possible to pirate console games - just look at all the PS3 USB dongles on trademe, or check the torrent sites for console games, for example. Anyone remember mod-chips for the original PS and Xboxes? Its maybe not as common as with PCs, but it's definitely happening. Yet you can even TRADE console games you've "finished", and you can RENT THEM from the video store as though they're wrapped in impregnable defences....[/quote]
I think you've only just scratched the surface of the whole whacky system, mentioning renting. For a long time we accepted that buying music meant buying a physical disc (vinyl or CD), so the concept of selling or lending made sense -- although the licensing was probably no different from today. I don't think it ever mattered to anyone that we purchased a license to listen to the music -- this was so tied to the actual disc that it was a lot easier to think of owning the disc, rather than the right to play it. So it was ok to consider them like books -- lend them, give them away, sell them, and even borrow them from the library. This easily transfers to DVDs and games.
Once it became commonplace to be able to copy them, the music industry etc just expected everyone to grasp the notion of licensing -- and it just didn't happen. So at the moment a lot of people are just unable to see it as a matter of right or wrong, it just happens -- borrow a CD from a friend, put it in your computer to have a listen, and it is just as easy to rip it as listen to it.
So once we get to media-less stuff like FS downloads, there is a huge number of people who have been trained to believe that easily available means freely available. It is hard to blame them really. I have been known to go on about pirate scum, but my attitude has softened a lot.
I have no idea what the answer is, and I don't think that anyone really has an answer. For my own stuff, I rely on convincing people that they will be better off long-term if they pay me, and this seems to work. And I don't subscribe to the idea that each illegal download equals one lost sale -- it's closer to 1 in 10. If one out of ten who illegally downloaded my scenery bought it, I'd actually have a little to put back into resources to produce more scenery. But waddaya gunna do...
Posted:
Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:16 amby AndrewJamez
I agree that every pirated copy does not equal a lost sale. Thats why the music industry's "lost revenue to piracy' figures seem so out of proportion. I think that most people that willingly and knowingly copy games, music,software and movies would 9 times out of 10 not part with any money to obtain it. Therefore is only theft without lost revenue, someting that the entertainment industry needs to realise and accept before they lose more revenue to paying custmers due to some of the clunky DRM systems that we are starting to see in some software.
Posted:
Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:25 amby Ian Warren
One flightsimmer who stops at my hanger , Greg 'Scaber' Mackenzie put it in a nutshell the other day looking across my shelves , "I do like the box sets , it shows you have payed for them " . When this new 'Flight ' appears , it will join with the many others i have .
Posted:
Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:54 amby Charl
Commerce has a way of dealing with trading issues.
Look at the way Sony failed to protect their music rights (By installing a rootkit on your computer)
Then look at how Apple just cleaned up with iTunes - a dollar here, a dollar there, full previews etc.
Even the Beatles finally got converted to the Apple religion.
Piracy is really just a symptom of a broken trading model.
BTW there really is nothing like a GOOD avocado.
And almost nothing worse than a BAD one...
Posted:
Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:35 pmby toprob
AndrewJamez wrote:I agree that every pirated copy does not equal a lost sale. Thats why the music industry's "lost revenue to piracy' figures seem so out of proportion. I think that most people that willingly and knowingly copy games, music,software and movies would 9 times out of 10 not part with any money to obtain it. Therefore is only theft without lost revenue, someting that the entertainment industry needs to realise and accept before they lose more revenue to paying custmers due to some of the clunky DRM systems that we are starting to see in some software.
Not a big fan of DRM this month -- I've got a new phone, and started to use a new media player on my PC, so between them a great chunk of my music is unplayable at the moment. I'm sure I can sort it out by tracking down the licenses, but a) I don't know where to start, and b) I don't have the time. Luckily I still rely on CDs for the bulk of it...
HOWEVER, I'm also a bit wary of the people who say that rampant piracy will continue until the music/etc industry sorts themselves out, and then go on to condone it for this reason. Personally I think that the music industry is like any other industry which had a highly desirable and controllable product, and therefore pushes their market grab to the limit. (ahem... oil industry...)
Of course things have to change now that they've lost the control they had, but you can't blame them for trying to hold on for as long as they can.
I imagine the conversation like this:
'We're losing bucket loads to piracy!'
'Prove it, give us a precise dollar value.'
'Ok, 100,000 song downloads at $1 each...'
'But you can't say how many of those would actually buy a song, so you have no proof. Come back when you have something concrete. In the meantime we'll be downloading everything we can, since it doesn't cost you anything...'
So the real question is whether or not you think that these industries lose out to piracy. I don't know or care much, but I do know that I personally lose out. Sometimes I spend a week tracking down a few traceable folk who have illegally downloaded my scenery, and usually end up collecting payment for some. This can turn a normal poor income into a reasonable income for that week, but it does take time which I'd rather spend making scenery...
Charl wrote:Commerce has a way of dealing with trading issues.
Look at the way Sony failed to protect their music rights (By installing a rootkit on your computer)
Then look at how Apple just cleaned up with iTunes - a dollar here, a dollar there, full previews etc.
Even the Beatles finally got converted to the Apple religion.
Piracy is really just a symptom of a broken trading model.
BTW there really is nothing like a GOOD avocado.
And almost nothing worse than a BAD one...
Mmmm, apple and avocado...
)
QUOTEHowever I can't agree with your point about lack of affordability leading to piracy -- there are a lot of things I can't afford, even today I couldn't afford some of the things I wanted (specifically cashews, stone fruit and avocados:) so I am doing without. I can't make the jump from 'hey, avocados are over-priced at the momentt' to 'I'll just stuff this avocado down my trousers.' There are some things I'll never be able to afford (a new car, a nice house, for instance) and I can't afford to buy new, high-priced games. That's life. Luckily there are cheaper alternatives which don't involve outright theft.[/quote]