NZFF

Hi guys,

I don't mean to open a can of worms here, I just want to confirm if it's only me, or this apparent change of attitude in the FS community is real? I read all the mainstream FS forums on a daily basis and face this phenomena more and more often:

When a developer comes out with a product after years of development, all the reaction he gets is something along the lines of:

"The FMC doesn't have all the real-world functions"
"The wingflex is 5 degrees less than it should be"
"Ok, now please make product XY"
"So when will you release the service pack?"

Similar happens when someone publishes a review or an interview:

"Why didn't you write more about feature XYZ?"
"You didn't use the correct speed on screenshot XYZ"
"Why didn't you ask more about XYZ?"

Where did the appreciation go? What's next? They'll start criticizing freeware stuff, too? Is this something to do with a new generation or just grown-ups being spoiled? Yes, demand is good for the business, but what if they'd try a civilized, polite tone instead of this childish "GIVE ME MORE" attitude? I love this hobby and most people involved but whenever I see something like this it takes my motivation right out and I just close the browser. I know we pay for these products but it's our decision. There are at least 2 serious reviews available withing a couple of weeks of the release for almost every product, which helps a lot with making that decision. Do these people take that hoodie they just bought for $20 back to the store just because the stitching inside isn't perfectly parallel?

Good thing is that I can't see any of that here on NZFF yet, but it might be only a question of time.

Sorry, I guess I just heard too much whining the last couple of days.

Dan

PS: If you admin guys find this a bit "over the line" please feel free to remove the post. No offense meant.

gojozoom wrote:

QUOTE (gojozoom @ Jul 1 2013,11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1-When a developer comes out with a product after years of development, all the reaction he gets is something along the lines of:

2-Similar happens when someone publishes a review or an interview:

3- Where did the appreciation go? What's next? They'll start criticizing freeware stuff, too? Is this something to do with a new generation or just grown-ups being spoiled?

Good thing is that I can't see any of that here on NZFF yet, but it might be only a question of time.

1- I simply post and congratulate any model i buy , if i see a little issue - i go back to the developer and ask what further information they need , if i can get it it go's directly to the company or persons involved because after doing many addon's and working with others you no how you may be off help and offer it freely.

2- Reviews , as above but for one payware .. and i guess you no the one i'm talking about , but for those less informed - I really had to knock the hell out off FIRST CLASS SIMULATIONS SHORT SUNDERLAND Now don't you get me ranting on that one ... share thievery that one was !

3 - Appreciation - my rule with any of my projects is no ones name is hidden in a tiny readme file ... they are always posted and it dose not matter how little they did , just the fact they had a go at it ........ SPOILED is the word for many.

Agree .... thats a well thought out rant ..... unlike some of mine in the past and you bring up some good points.

It seems our hobby could become part of the , i want it now and i want it perfect bunch ..... and considering the complexity of the hobby , it aint going to happen. Even the basic platform wont allow for 100% realism ..... a no brainer , i would have thought.

I think what we have on offer is just stunning ..... but not being a button pusher , i guess my input may be a little slanted.

Rant on

Couldn't agree more, Dan! - and it seems to be more than the old "Mine's bigger than yours" syndrome. Just greedy, thoughtless, ignorant people... the same ones who think it is clever to 'bump' a developer's thread because they think he or she is not producing the new thing quickly enough. Then when it does appear, they want to know why it won't work in a sim it wasn't designed for, and will the developer degrade their work so that it will, and oh yes can I have a pink one?
Y'all have a nice day, now...

I think this is more to do with how easy it is to add your opinion to just about everything on the web these days. In the old days, we had a couple of 'watchdogs' who would keep an eye out for anything which could be improved, but these days everyone is a watchdog, and some people think they are actually doing a good job by rubbishing anything new.

I don't notice this a lot in flightsim, but I see it a lot on media sites -- even our local news sites get a huge number of comments aimed at the way the article was written rather than the point raised in the article.

From a development point of view, the fact that anyone can comment on anything can be a great thing. You just need to filter out the 'kipple'.

One result though is that the positive comments tend to be hidden amongst the rubbish, or people just forget to say thanks for something nice. Or worse still, are rubbished themselves for 'fan-boy' comments when they do say something nice.

Yeah Dan it's a wide weird world out there for sure huh. Thick-skinned doesn't really cut it does it, more like kevlar-reinforced-skin I'd say. And man, if you think fsim community appreciation levels are low just take a look at YouTube comments

Robin, and Ian, as two of our resident developers, would be REALLY interesting to hear if the odd positive comment actually makes up for it in your opinion?

My moral expectations of Youtube and the kinds are non-existent, due to the quality (or lack of) of the content shared there (there are exceptions of course)...
But FS and/or aviation as a hobby requires a fair amount of intellectual qualities, which used to reflect on forum activities too. They still do over here though

deeknow wrote:

QUOTE (deeknow @ Jul 1 2013,12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah Dan it's a wide weird world out there for sure huh. Thick-skinned doesn't really cut it does it, more like kevlar-reinforced-skin I'd say. And man, if you think fsim community appreciation levels are low just take a look at YouTube comments

Robin, and Ian, as two of our resident developers, would be REALLY interesting to hear if the odd positive comment actually makes up for it in your opinion?

Most positive comments are normally via email -- I do think that it is easier for people to say nice things one-on-one, and horrible things anonymously. Feedback for my payware is great, almost always positive, but freeware feedback is rare. Maybe people appreciate things more if they pay for them.

Dealing with modern online comment-based feedback only really works if you filter it, and actually take the constructive stuff onboard. So I sort comments into rubbish and constructive. Constructive is sorted into things I can fix, and things I can't. If I can reply, I do in either case, whereas I tend not to reply to the rubbish.

I think that some developers react badly to criticism simply because they haven't thought through the process.

I was raised to believe that "if you cannot say something nice, don't say anything at all." And I admit that I am in awe of these developers and painters in the sim community.

Saying that, I do find flaws or issues at times that either diminish my enjoyment of the product or have me wondering what the developer overlooked something. At that point (if I can't find the solution or fix it myself) I seek out the support forum or send the developer an e-mail on the issue. Never do I post it in a public forum.

I once raised a question as to why the developer didn't include a readme.txt file that explained all the animated shortcuts, and I was quickly chastised for criticizing the developer (I wasn't, but I was questioning his methods).

Unfortunately, there are too many 'experts' who feel privileged to vent in a public forum. They paid their money, and they expect the world because they know better. Hogwash.

--WH

I agree with you on quite a bit of this. The one that really stumps me is the lack of even a simple "thanks" sometimes.. or "please". My daughter is 4 years old I've taught her how to say please and thank you. These words are failing by the wayside in society in general I think, perhaps due to the text generation, who knows.
Nothing bugs me more than helping someone out in my own free time, and not getting so much in return as a six letter "thanks". I'd be happy with a text version "tnx" even lol

But as others have said above, I too know that flight sim is definitely yards ahead of the rest of the gaming community. Some gaming forums I have visited everyone are just awful to each other. Flightsim at least generally as you say it, have an intellectual crowd who try to be nice to one another. There is always a place for constructive criticism as Warhorse has suggested above.
I stay here at NZFF for the carefree, yet caring place that it is

I agree with you gojo, people seem to spend far too much time finding the faults with a product rather than being thankful for what the product is, e.g who gives a cr@p that wingflex is out by 5 deg!