NZFF

Ironic Cheeky bringing up Kiwi Air at a time when its about to merge with another VA in what it calls a alliance!

With this alliance it gains a unrealistic Aircraft base and loses sight of the General Aviation concept that made it what New Zealand was lacking. Yet the people behind the Virtual Airline are all from the UK with one exception who now regards himself as a Kiwi.

So I asked myself what really is a New Zealand base Virtual Airline? Is it a Virtual Airline thats run by Kiwis for Kiwis or not? Whats even more Ironic is there is now a real Kiwi Air again this time based in Taupo flying the Pacific Aerospace 750XL.

So what does make a true Kiwi VA?

Being a brit, I wouldn't know the answer to your question

...But I am sure some other forum members do!

As for the very odd looking Pacific Aerospace 750XL based at Taupo, it dosen't wear your amazing paint scheme does it?

Theres a free version for FS2004 here: http://www.pmstone.com/AircraftUtility.htm (the 4th one down) where the description says:

Built by Pacific Aerospace of New Zealand, the 750XL is a high performance, low wing, single engine utility turboprop.  Intially targeted at the skydiving industry, with its excellent short field performance and good lifting capability it can perform a wide variety of roles.

Although I'm not a true kiwi, my only suggestion for the ultimate New Zealand VA is that is uses aircraft built in NZ!

Yea well I am a brit as well by birth but as we live in New Zealand I would say that you and me would know a bit more about OUR country to be able to create a VA about this area. Lots have tried and failed yet they dont understand the country or have been here.

Yes that PMstone repaint of the PAC750XL ironically is one of the ones owned by Kiwi Air, ZK-XLA. They are built I believe in Hamilton and our a true New Zealand Aircraft.

And as far as I know they have not yet painted there planes in my colour scheme but one never knows, next time I am up in Taupo I might have a little chat about that though

The only other New Zealand VA I know of Run and based in New Zealand is Virtual Air New Zealand. Even though the site needs a bit of a makeover its the best choice in my view for a candidate for a True VA.

Check it out

http://www.virtualairnz.org.nz/

I remember visting Virtual Air NZ quite a while ago, but I think they have closed because when you click on the "Sign Up" page, you get this:

Sorry, new sign-ups are disabled at this time, please check again later or email webmaster@virtualairnz.org.nz for an account

That message has been appearing for over a year...

Howdy,

Interesting.

In answer to Colin's query: I see a NZ VA as being an operation run with a very clear understanding/knowledge of the local airline industry conditions, warts 'n all.

Of course, there are several other GA VA's located here in New Zealand: the US-based Aurora Air's Oceania Division run/ran operations out of NZQN (haven't been able to access their homepage now for several weeks, so don't really know if they still exist) and the UK-based Whistling Duck out of NZHK. Even BFU (Bush Flying Unlimited) want to muscle in on the scene.

My problem with these VA's is their decidedly unrealistic approach. They transplant local American/British knowledge (or some supposedly "romantic" ideal) of their airline industry upon the NZ scene ... and it just don't mesh (for example: Aurora maintain a fleet of DHC2 Beavers et cetera at NZQN, and that's an a/c we haven't seen in regular operation here since the days of James Aviation (Rotorua). Similarly, BFU are planning to place an FBO at Milford Sound (despite my strenuous objections to relocate to NZQN) and have no real understanding of the enviornmental impact "bush" operations would have on the area.

Stay tuned, though, as there are some very interesting (and radical) developments which should come to fruition in the next week or three.

And that's all I'm saying.

Trolls, There not closed they just dont take automatic sign ups like they did in the past.

The guy you are emailing is Aaron Martin who is the person that hosts the website on his companies server but I alk to Aaron a lot on MSN and he has been extremely busy of late with a move and work so be patiant for a reply. When I speak to him next I will find out whats up for you.

Gidday Dorian, What you are saying is basically what I feel is happening to Kiwi Air now with that so called alliance. You just have to see the sarcasm in the voice of Doug Ross to note he aint got a clue about New Zealand really.

I was thinking of pulling my involvement with that VA and seek out pastures new with a more adapt VA for New Zealand. Just thinking what you said on Avsim about legalities not sure how I would stand if I used the Domain Name I have?

I also noticed this with FSEconomy even though thats a great programme for the GA flyer its been destroyed by that American so called knowledge of what should be here. I foolishly thought I would be able to address that balance with Kiwi input but for my troubles all I got was bad mouthed by the arrogant Americans who have taken control of it. Not content with that they pay a great deal of attention to what I am doing which tells you what kind of people they are dont it?

Will be good to see a kiwi with the innovation and knowledge to give some kind of realism to the Aircraft we have down under and the kind of ops we have. I have a idea knocking around in my head but as yet in view of the Moronic behaviour of some wonder if its worthwhile.

Nice to see somone bring this subject up Its true that most of the VAs you see that say we fly out of New Zealand are jokers that dont know nothing about New Zealand or think they know

I never was one for flying those types of VAs if at all and the only one I would call a full blood New Zealand Virtual Airline is Virtual Air New Zealand and yes its still open despite appearances

Kiwi Air well look at the domain name mike-the-wanderer.co.uk straight away that says a brit who thinks he knows how it works in the NZ skies. But I got to say that one great paint scheme and I only say that now I know it had a kiwi behind it.

Sorry to say though it dont appeal to me because of that weak New Zealand connection

Now Dorian what are you planning? A kiwi at the helm this should be good

Greg

Colleagues:

Whilst it is easily to flame someone on a bulletin board - let me explain my actual point of view on the issue and I hope it's a straightforward one.

The FS community is at a turning point - real world VA's are the present growth sector - more so retro, 'real world VA's. You only have to look at the growth on Pan Am, post it's launch is just one example of this. Cathy Pacific Virtual is another.

Now It's a great concept to have a Kiwi VA - and stick strictly to Kiwi Avaition values. However NZ virtual aviation suffers from the same problem as the country I love has - we have a fantastic land mass and a small population.

The non Kiwi run VA - will have other corporate lauguages and values that are not
part of New Zealand life - but NZ life is changing and evolving too. And these imported values are evolving as part of real world life in N.Z. In the end the choice is simple do you welcome a non- Kiwi owned VA promoting Kiwi aviation in the broadest sense- as a advert for New Zealand or do you take the strictly purist view that it is not quite Kiwi - and therefore sorry it's not for us.

New Zealand is a special place in the world - that at least I hope we all agree! On a personal basis, I'm happy to except other coutries VA people into the area as a compromise to help promote New Zealand and New Zealand VA's.

I'm not going to rehash the virtual discussions I've had with Colin He and I have robustly debated this elsewhere and I know we're not going to agree on this subject We hold diferent views and that is his absolute right to do so and mine too.

And I'm a Scot - but my track record in NZ goes back to 1970 and I still have a house there too.

Given my name has been mentioned in the postings - I thought it only fair to explain my side of the issue and viewpoint and whether you agree with me or not - may I thank you for taking the time to read my posting and viewpoint.

Best wishes,

Doug Ross

Original reply revoked as it was Feeding a TROLL!!!

Maybe if you were a Kiwi you would understand but heck Dorian was able to sum it up best in the two following qoutes

I see a NZ VA as being an operation run with a very clear understanding/knowledge of the local airline industry conditions, warts 'n all.

My problem with these VA's is their decidedly unrealistic approach. They transplant local American/British knowledge (or some supposedly "romantic" ideal) of their airline industry upon the NZ scene ... and it just don't mesh

Dont ever tell a Kiwi what they SHOULD do! We know better than you

Colin:

That was exactly my point........

The NZ Flight Sim industry is at a crossroads in some ways like the real world ANZ post 9/11 - stay local or go international. And in my view the NZ sim industry HAS to make that choice too.

The ultimate question that needs to be resolved is there enough interest in a specialist NZ only product to keep theNZFS industry alive? Or in order to survive - does the NZ flight sim industry need (as the country is going through as well) be part of a larger international chain?

You and I are poles apart on this - my viewpoint is that the industry needs to reach out as part of a larger international project. You hold the opposite view and in truth time will tell.

It's an interesting debate and one which I'm sure we will both watch and participate in with interest.

Best wishes,

Doug Ross.

Your unbelievable in your arrogance Doug!

If you know so much about New Zealand and love this country as you claimed then why did you go back up North? Could it be you DO NOT understand Kiwi Values?

How he would feel if you went and set up a scottish VA and told you how to run it?

See I maybe a Pom by Birth but left that country over 3 years ago now and have had my heart in New Zealand since the very first day I visited this great country over 13 years ago.

New Zealand is my home and I am proud of it for what it is!

Howdy,

Even more interesting.

My take on things is: NZ flight simming is (and has, until recently been) an incredibly insular entity. First, a little history. (To some, this may be incredibly old news, and for this I apologise; to the crop of more recent flight simmers, well ... )

Since FS98 days, and until maybe a year ago, the vast majority of NZ simming revolved around the regular Tuesday and Sunday night VATPAC flyins organised through the kiwiflightsim group at Yahoo!Groups. This was the time that Virtual Air New Zealand was founded and grew to pre-eminace in the NZ scene. vANZ obviously succeeded in fulfilling the expectations of many, if not most, local simmers of the day.

This form of simming appeared, at least to this rather jaundiced eye, to attain its zenith pre FS2004. After that, something changed (possibly the fact that Squawkbox wouldn't work quite as well with 2K4 as it had with 2K2 and there was a vast technological chasm to bridge, which took considerable time; I don't know).

It was possibly the release of Robin Corn's first Godzone photoreal sceneries that helped shape the NZ flight simming scene at this time. Here was NZ in all it's beauty; a beauty which could really only be appreciated at the "low 'n slow" level.
The time was right for new ideas.

First, there was an attempt, in early 2004, to create a local GA "flying club" ... which foundered. The same concept was attempted again mid-last year with the establishment of the South Canterbury Virtual Flying Club. It too, appears to have met a similar response and suffered the same fate as the first organisation. Mid-2K2/early 2K4 there was a virtual RNZAF operating (flew mostly on VATPAC). Where it has disappeared to I do not know. I know there are several other NZ VAs out there, such as the Michael Davies Groups, but they are seldom seen/heard in any of the main forum(s) and keep very much to themselves.

What is intriguing about all the above is the rather inherent "insular" attitude. When I speak of insularism, I'm not just refering to the despair of isolation or "the tryanny of distance". No, it is intricately bound up with what Flight Sim means to Kiwi (and other) simmers.

Flight Sim is a "game", a simulation of flight. What little boy doesn't dream of flying a 747, 777, or Airbus A320? Flight Sim allows these dreams to be experienced to the full extent/limit of our computer hardware, current technology, and our pocket book.

Now, here's the rub. Big tin can only be flown by an airline (either national or international). And, historically, there has only ever been one national carrier (at a time). This is what I was refering to in my earlier post about a keen understanding of the local avaition industry. For much of the history of NZ aviation, it has been a highly regulated industry, subject to intervention by successive governments. If you would like to know more about this, then I suggest you track down a copy of Maurice McGreal's "A History of Civil Aviation in New Zealand" (and this only goes as far as the mid 1990s). Without an understanding of where the industry has come from, one has no real understanding of the current situation and how it impacts our future. But I digress.

What is interesting is that other forms of flying have not been attempted in the NZ flight sim scene. This is a what I really mean when I refer to the insular (narrow?) attitude of Kiwi flight simmers. Aerial crop-dusting was not invented in NZ, but Kiwi aviators took it to where it is today. So, why no crop-dusting VAs? Similarily, flight-seeing. There are over 50+ independent operators here in New Zealand (some big, many small), but again, no Kiwi flight-seeing VAs. The Bizjet industry is currently undergoing a renaissance here in NZ. But again, no Kiwi bizjet VAs. And why no virtual RNZAF (unless of course there is a restriction upon using the name)? Or more GA virtual Flying Clubs; afterall, the majority of pilots in New Zealand are recreational, not commercial pilots? Or retro avaition companies (Union, Trans Island Airways, SAFE, SPANZ, TAT et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? No, everyone wants to fly big tin and fulfill their little boy dreams.

NZ flightsimming does indeed stand at a turning point. What is needed are fresh ideas and the enthusiasm to see them to fruition. Whether this comes from outside organisations, or from within the local flight simming scene, as long as there is a keen understanding of where we've been, then a brighter future is assured. Otherwise, we're condemed to repeating the same-old same-old.

Basically you are a Kiwi and you understand what is what!

Colin:

LOL I came back up north for the oldest of reason's - it's where my now wife lives and my work too! But I'll be back my links, my home and family are still here.

Dorian:

Very many thanks for your latest posting and as I mentioned in my earlier comments - it will be interesting to see how the future pan's out - more so too with FS10 on the horizon.

To all who contributed to the debate - many thanks for your time and commments, especially Dorian for his thoughtful and informative piece.

Best wishes,

Doug

And I'm a Scot

Uh hu so your not a Kiwi at all and you just came here for a holiday took advantage of our cheap properties and buggered off back up North

Thats not such a bad idea to set up a Scotish based VA as I have never been there other than a few genes from my Grandfathers side I could draw attention to Scotland and all its wonderful locks and glens.

Just wondering Doug did you come on to this forum to stir up some trouble? Way I see it you are trying to push a idea to people who have had enough of being told how the Aviation industry works in New Zealand. I find your choice of usernames suspicous as well

I liked Kiwi Air before it merged and became just another Heavy Iron VA based around a overseas prospective. Incidentally I was wondering if Atlantic Aviation had any connection to http://www.atlanticaviation.com/ ? Wonder what they would say about the Trademark and copyright etc.?

My own view is that Virtual airlines are dying out because there are to many of them around that last five minutes before losing interest. Either that or they try to cater for a market they dont know as is this case.

It looks like your on a rough road Doug.

ps Hey BM like you Avatar B)

My Two cents, ca`nt see what you are all on about quite frankly the word Virtual means that Virtual so its not real and does`nt reflect the values or reflect N.Z in anyway except for a logo on a plane and the said plane flies in a virtual airspace Namely N.Z ? Rick P.S Black Magic What the hell do you mean by this in your signature {To be true to New Zealand you must be in New Zealand } I am a NZder born and bred ( Maori ) to be precise, and i`m offended by that statement!
My MANA Tungatewhenua is my home Namely Aoteroa wherever i am U.K Australia the Moon, ?

Sigh first post and its a hot debate

Looking at this post it was a pretty resonable question to ask and it seems to have been hijacked by the deluded views of Doug Ross. Both Blackmagic and ZK-LGD raised some pretty good points but from the outset of posts by Doug Ross you could tell they were designed to provoke.

From the first post the line

Whats even more Ironic is there is now a real Kiwi Air again this time based in Taupo flying the Pacific Aerospace 750XL.

Coincidence that Doug would choose TAUPO as a username or was it to provoke the response that he already was digging at in the Kiwi Air Forums?

I think this forum can do without the unconstructive comments of Doug Ross.

rick66 wrote: the word Virtual means that Virtual so its not real and does`nt reflect the values or reflect N.Z in anyway except for a logo on a plane and the said plane flies in a virtual airspace Namely N.Z ?

Howdy Rick,

Well ... I suppose it all boils down to what folks expect from flight sim.

Afterall, the game is a simulation of flight. As FS grows increasingly more sophisticated, the expectation, for some, is that the game reflect the reality of the aviation world. And aren't airlines an integral part of that world?

So, if you simulate flight to the point where it mirrors a perceived reality, shouldn't virtual airlines be conceived of, and run as, an exact simulation of the real thing too?

Then again, maybe I need to get out more and have a real life.

rick66 wrote: My Two cents, ca`nt see what you are all on about quite frankly the word Virtual means that Virtual so its not real and does`nt reflect the values or reflect N.Z in anyway except for a logo on a plane and the said plane flies in a virtual airspace Namely N.Z ? Rick P.S Black Magic What the hell do you mean by this in your signature {To be true to New Zealand you must be in New Zealand } I am a NZder born and bred ( Maori ) to be precise, and i`m offended by that statement!
My MANA Tungatewhenua is my home Namely Aoteroa wherever i am U.K Australia the Moon, ?

Hi Rick

Well Dorian beat me to part of the reply to you! Well a Virtual airline is a Virtually reality in some respects like Dorian Said up to the perception of the realism we now grow to expect. Why would someone want to mimic a Real airline ops for example.

The other point to make is a lot of work can go into that percieved reality and it dont go down to well when someone comes along and attempts to force there reality on to yours. Which was what Doug tried to do and has done, Hence why I stood down from the Virtual Airline Kiwi Air! It was taking a path that was against the original concept a misguided idea which was summned up in this email I got a section I qoute

Why go through all that crap, it will just
hurt both VA's in the long run, I can not think of one VA Alliance that has
actually benefited a VA. 

Hence why I asked the original Question! You see I put a lot of effort in supporting the idea of a General Aviation VA that was following the kind of lines Dorian mentioned earlier and the inclussion of a few heavy irons was just a way of encouraging a few more members but still maintain that Kiwi direction, in fact we discouraged the hour builders in Heavy Irons by encouraging a award system so your earned a flight of Heavy by flying several GA flights. Then along comes this Alliance wth a Virtual Airline that is clearly Heavy Iron based and no longer dedicated to being a Kiwi Based VA.

I apologise for the signature that was not designed to cause offence it was more of a statement that only a True Kiwi or someone who lives here would understand what goes on in his/her country.

How do I explain that more clearly? Its a tough one but I would say the saying the Grass always Looks Greener on the other side of the fence is true! As a Visitor you only see the surface, you live here you see the roots! So you understand better what your grass now looks like.

For a example I spent a year in New Zealand and when I got back to the UK my perception had changed to the UK and it took me a long time to fit back in! Of course I never did so I moved to New Zealand and the funny thing now is I get more defensive of the outsiders who dig at whats now my country. When I talk to Visitors from the UK I can sense the cultural differance thats between myself and them, I take haert to know that they are not staying

Sounds selfish dont it but then again I feel thats pride in what a great Country We have in New Zealand and Virtual or not then we should have some level of realism in that Virtual reality we have.

That make sense?

This thread is comedy gold, for the wrong reasons I'm afraid. I just have to add my comments (first post here).

I personally get the feeling it's more of an ongoing IM discussion between those who only want to hear their point of view, those who appear to have the same mindset (perhaps even the same mind!), with occasional bursts of comments by those who are quick to be shot down, even banned.

For the record I am a member of two VA's, one is the aforementioned Virtual Air New Zealand, the other is the worldwide Virtual Pilot's Association (of which has 15 NZ members at the moment).

I am not involved in management of any VA and essentially see the existence and successfulness of a VA not to rely on what country it's operated from, more so on who runs it and what spirit the community has.

I fly on Vatsim a fair bit, the NZ airspace community spirit is strong, and therefore an example of people working for a common goal, that is to enjoy our hobby and maybe attract others. I also enjoy IL2 as a deviation from flying glorified buses and the community there is strong too, with many helpful participants.

Bickering over technicalities gets Simming nowhere.