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Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:40 pm
by toprob
I've just popped a quick video onto YouTube, showing the Coromandel photoscenery. Here it is for those who don't follow me on Facebook:

Watch on youtube.com


This is a two-part post, first I'll cover some of the ideas I have for this scenery, then I'll talk about why these probably won't happen...

One major feature of the Coromandel is the amount of native bush, it is one of the few areas inaccessible enough to be left alone. So it's a good place to use the new Native Bush autogen which I released for Dunedin. The video shows this autogen, but I'll cover the reasons why this might not be part of the finished scenery later on it this post.

There are five airfields within the photoscenery area -- Thames, Coromandel, Whitianga, Pauanui and Matarangi. When I began the photoscenery a long time ago, I did expect to be able to visit the area, but this didn't work out. Still, it is the sort of scenery which could really benefit from a photographic expedition, not to mention just getting away to what is really a hidden gem. Out of my reach at the moment, but you never know.

This may end up being released as part of the Subscription, but since it will hopefully be a 'finished' stand-alone area, I may put it in my Store for non-Subscribers -- cheaper than a 'Real NZ' release, but still payware. First, though, I need to figure out a few things.

As I mentioned, the video shows the new native bush autogen which I used for Dunedin -- this is a custom autogen class, so it displays correctly for everyone without overwriting any default autogen textures. I did plan to build a library of different vegetation sets, and Dunedin was a kind of experiment, using custom bush, willows, eucalyptus, windbreaks and a few other tree types. However not everyone who bought Dunedin was happy to install the merger tool which allows for this custom autogen, thinking that it would affect their existing autogen -- mainly FTX stuff. This is not the case at all, the merger tool was created specifically to prevent autogen descriptions being over-written, especially the likes of Orbx, who simply drop in their descriptions overwriting everything each time something is installed, altered, or even if you just run FTX Central.

I have a few ideas why people might be seeing this new tool as a complication rather than a solution. One reason suggested to me is that people see Orbx as the standard for New Zealand, and anything non-Orbx is somewhat lesser, or can't be trusted, and definitely shouldn't affect FTX scenery. It may be that too many users don't read any manuals, so they don't know how to deal with this stage of the installation, and it was simpler to bypass it. Really, it could be anything. I'm acutely aware that part of this was my own fault, releasing the initial installer with a bug which messed this up, and required a patch.

The Coromandel was designed from the start to use an extension of the autogen I tested in Dunedin, adding more vegetation types, and customising other autogen, such as buildings, including a new autogen building roof shape, which lowers the roof pitch to something more realistic in New Zealand. This can improve houses a lot, although there is no way of changing the percentage of two-storey buildings, which is my main bugbear. These roofs can also be used for more realistic NZ warehousing, which is anther main goal of mine. However the priority is the house autogen, as most of the Coromandel is close to the normal kiwi bach.

However, all this -- or any single part -- requires some way to add autogen descriptions, and prevent them from being overwritten by other developers. This really means relying on the autogen merger tool. If people don't want the tool, then they that's their right. For me, though, it's a bit of a catch-22 -- to continue creating scenery, I need to push the boundaries a little, otherwise I'm just churning out stuff. So it makes projects like the Coromandel less of a priority, because of it's reliance on an improved autogen bush.

One solution is to give people the choice of installing the custom autogen, or using default autogen. However I've already learnt that people don't like too many choices with their installers, so the only workable solution is to use default autogen, which at the moment doesn't really appeal to me at all. But I need to give people what they want. The funny thing is that I'll still need to create something nicer, if only for me, so I'll have the only version of my 'ideal' New Zealand... Unless I sell a 'special blend' to a few who are willing to go along with me... Of course this couldn't be advertised, because we keep coming back to simplicity -- adding an option turns some people off completely, and I can't afford to lose customers if I want to keep doing this. I never thought I'd see the day when I was considering bootlegging scenery, but there you go...

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:14 pm
by Ian Warren
Looking Superb, this is one area that has really been well represented and is still growing in its looks B-)

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 5:46 pm
by bernief
Hi Rob.

I like the idea of having custom autogen descriptions. I recently bought Nantucket Airport from iblueyonder and Bill Womack included a custom autogen description and that worked without a problem for me. There was an initial problem but it was quickly sorted.

I like the idea of pushing the boundaries. Please kkep up the good work.

Cheers

Bernie

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:57 am
by MichaelBasler
I have been hesitant against the Autogen Merger for some time. However, given the fact more and more sceneries I want to use exploit it, I finally installed it. I'll have to wait for long-term experience, but it didn't bite me so far. Yes, you get the popup after running FTX Central 3, but that's it so far and I can live with this.

From my point of view go for it. It's probably the least annoying solution at present.

I was in hope LM would revise and extend their landclass and autogen system for version 4, but in view of the fact ORBX will provide free Prepar3d4 upgrades I doubt there has been any major oberhaul of the terrain engine.

Kind regards, Michael

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:49 am
by AdrianPetford
I'm totally in favour of you sticking with AutogenConfigurationMerger, Rob. The new autogen descriptions added so much to Dunedin and it would be a crying shame to lose that progression, especially for an area like the Coromandel which would showcase it so well.

Now ACM is at a stable 1.0 release, it's a lot less of a concern in terms of potential installation issues and the tool is becoming more common, in fact I can see it becoming the de facto standard for third party add on scenery before too long. Think of how many use ModelConverterX now. As long as people are well enough informed about the initial pop-up and restarting the sim afterwards, ACM should be entirely invisible after it's done its work.

I have a custom install of ACM outside Dunedin to accommodate other sceneries which may use it, so it was more fiddly for me to set up than most (and yes, I was pretty concerned at the time, having suffered some autogen description rewriting catastrophes in the past) but after that first run, everything was fine. Perhaps you could include the location of ACM's log file in your documentation to allow people to check it has run properly in case they missed the pop-up or are concerned afterwards?

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:21 pm
by toprob
Cheers, guys. The most likely solution is an installer which just installs default autogen, but with a small additional option for the adventurous.

The reality is, some people hate that popup, they see it as an error message or something, when really it just does the job it was designed to do in the simplest way.

I've also been held back lately by a broken Whisplacer, the object placement tool I use. It stopped working a while ago, I thought it was because of a Java update, but reverting to the previous version didn't help. I have been planning to replace it with Flight1's Instant Scenery, but I haven't been selling enough scenery to cover my living expenses, so I've held off. Turns out that it just needed a tweak to the Simconnect settings, to take into account the IPv6 connection where I live! Nothing is easy, that's for sure... Still, I was pleased to solve it, I suspect that nothing comes close to the features of Whisplacer, it's a pity it was never finished -- I'd certainly pay for it.

Tim has already done some nice VLC airfields in this area, I may just tweak them to match, but as I said earlier, I would love to visit these airfields to get a real feel for them. Never been to the Coromandel. I guess it's just a matter of flying to Auckland -- or Tauranga -- and renting a car for a few days. Pity I'm completely broke at the moment:)

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:43 pm
by NZ255
Bloodly annoying that orbs are so invasive. I say stick with custom, but most likely the customers with the issues aren't on the forums....

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:52 am
by Ian Warren
NZ255 wrote:Bloodly annoying that orbs are so invasive. I say stick with custom, but most likely the customers with the issues aren't on the forums....

You my motto .. "Photo Real is Best" .. If you have a scenery you can find you way home and find it there then that is it !

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:40 am
by MichaelBasler
NZ255 wrote:Bloodly annoying that orbs are so invasive. I say stick with custom, but most likely the customers with the issues aren't on the forums....

I don't think that's fully justified. You might exchange "invasive" by "innovative". ORBX started using extended (region-specific) autogen at a time no one else thought about it and came to an agreement with MS at that time.

I might also add, they have been offering and still offer to include extended autogen descriptions into their insertions via FTX Central 3. Some (like Aerosoft with VFR Germany) went along this route while others (like VFR France) rejected it, but the offer is still valid, as far as I know.

I wouldn't blame ORBX for being innovative, but the dated FSX/P3D terrain machine is in severe need for an overhaul. As far as I know ORBX' John Venema even made a proposal to LM for a more flexible autogen/landclass system time ago, which however, has not been realized by LM so far (I guess because they don't want to give up compatibility).

Kind regards, Michael

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:12 am
by toprob
You are right in all your points, Michael. I do hope that the next big sim will overcome the autogen limitations, as this is one area which really lets the sim down -- I'm continually amazed at how great Prepar3d looks now, but autogen always lets it down when you get close enough to see it...

Including third party descriptions in FTX descriptions, though, is never going to be a solution, except for scenery designed only for use with FTX scenery -- mine isn't. So the merger tool is still required. I did see a suggestion that FTX Central could run the merger tool after it has done it's magic, which would really help, the process could then be invisible to the user. I'd love to see that implemented.

Orbx have done amazing things, that's for sure, I don't think that the MSFS-based sims would have survived without them. The main problem I'm up against is that they have abandoned NZ development, but still maintain full control, in my case their exclusivity controls. I'd love to make scenery for FTX, and have them sell it, but not exclusively, and not based completely on their design decisions -- I prefer photoscenery to landclass textures, for example. If they relaxed things a little for areas which they have abandoned, then someone else could take up the slack, and they could still make money out of continued development. Of course this is unlikely, as it would dilute their brand a little.

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:05 pm
by toprob
Here's another video, this time in FSX. FTX NZNI is active, so there's a nice little airport at Thames, albeit unaligned.

Watch on youtube.com

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 6:42 pm
by Ian Warren
Almost like I never left the place, driving a Spitfire in this neck of the woods Ideal B-)

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:22 pm
by MichaelBasler
toprob wrote:Here's another video, this time in FSX. FTX NZNI is active, so there's a nice little airport at Thames, albeit unaligned.

Watch on youtube.com


Thanks Rob, this is a nice place indeed. I quite often make a flight from NZAA to Thames. It's just what fits into the time I've left after work in the evening :)

Kind regards, Michael

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:47 pm
by Ian Warren
MichaelBasler wrote:I quite often make a flight from NZAA to Thames. It's just what fits into the time I've left after work in the evening :)

Mike , That is the one nice things with the geographies of NZ .. such a small area and so much can change in such a really quick time, now getting to a stage were you can connect dot to dot point very quickly anywhere and again .. not quite.. but almost photo real and quality is constantly is changing and getting built on.

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:01 am
by cowpatz
You really do know you have a c##p internet connection when you can't even watch a 720p movie without that incredibly annoying buffering symbol showing up every few seconds. aarrrggghhhh.

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:12 am
by Ian Warren
:rolleyes: That did get annoying .. I seem to be so lucky with the connection here, generally its superb for vid watch or MP's.

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:31 am
by jpreou
Although not in simming right now, I too would support the autogen tool.

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:58 am
by cowpatz
I also support the autogen tool.

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:28 pm
by MichaelBasler
There are good news for users of Arno Gerritsen's AutogenConfigurationMerger. I have been a long-term user (and beta tester) of SimStarterNG

http://aviation.pero-online.de/wordpress/?page_id=1081

I asked the author if it would be possible for SimStarter to intercept the popup and subsequent sim restart after running, e.g., FTX Central 3. Depending on usage, this is quite often, namely every time you get an ORBX update for some bush scenery, new ORBXlibs, call the Vector Configurator etc.

Peter Rosendahl the programmer of SimStarter got in contact with Arno Gerritsen. As a result the next release version of SimStarter will sport a (per-profile) checkbox to run the Merger in advance of the Sim at the proper point in time. As a result, the popup will no longer appear and there will be no need for a simulator restart even after calling FTX Central 3.

I tested this yesterday (in the latest beta) and it did work. Should be in the next released update due in a week or so. This should be useful for Dunedin users already.

Simstarter is low-cost payware available from e.g. Simmarket

http://secure.simmarket.com/aerosoft-simstarter-ng-fsx-p3d.phtml

and has a host of useful features beyond just this one.

Kind regards, Michael

Re: Some things to sort out about future NZ scenery

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:07 pm
by toprob
Cheers, Michael, this post slipped by me, sorry...
Good to see it being catered for, I guess it's just a matter of time before it is accepted as a normal part of the process.

Just reviewing the comments here -- I did say that maybe the idea might be to offer a 'top shelf' version of any new releases to those who are would be happy to use them -- I would think maybe around 100 folk in this category, I can just about name you all...