Orbx's 'name and shame' post

[toprob]

This post is provided as 'fair warning' of the perils of piracy. In this post I am representing both NZFF as an administrator, and myself and others as payware developers and publishers.

Orbx have posted a list of usernames -- and email address -- of members of their forum whose IP addresses have been flagged downloading illegal copies of Orbx products, and banned them from the forum. Avsim have followed with similar action, based on Orbx's IP address list.

I won't post a link to the Orbx forum, as I believe it is members-only, and the link won't work if you are not a member.

I won't go into too much detail on how they obtained IP addresses, but just be aware that both torrent software and internet forums use IP addresses to keep track of users. If you sign up for both a commercial support forum and a torrent of any of their products, then basically you are saying 'here I am, I'm stealing your software.' Which seems pretty silly when you think about it.

Anyone can do this sort of cross-referencing -- I've done it myself, compiling a list of those who illegally downloaded my products and who's IP address makes them identifiable on the web. I have never taken the action that Orbx has, but I certainly support them for it. Piracy is heart-breaking for smaller developers who see something like 5 - 10 illegal downloads of a particular product for every one they sell.

I tend to take a more 'educational' approach when I find a cross-reference. This normally means an emailed warning, and a short amnesty period in which they can purchase what they have obtained illegally. However generally NZers are few and far between on these lists of torrent IP addresses, so I tend to think that these are mainly people who don't really understand the consequences and risks of their actions, and normally just pointing these out to them is enough to warn them off. Many are kids who just follow their friends without realising how risky it is.

But I am sometimes tempted to take a stricter tack, like Orbx. Just be aware that anyone who decides that they would take the risk should be aware that even if they are not brought to justice, the people they steal from may be aware of their activities.

Comments and discussion is welcome. However normal forum rules apply doubly here -- no personal attacks -- if you have seen the Orbx post there a couple of things may have struck you as relevant, but we don't need to get into these here.

If I was to give any advice to anyone who was caught out in this position -- fess up, pay up, and keep out of trouble in future.

[Ian Warren]

I no this is Brilliant ! , I think you should contact Orbx .. yourself , It will help you , In the firing line and will be many designers in New Zealand .

This is Justly fair for a designer and the customer .

[creator2003]

Its just one of those things in my mind ,sharing is in the nature of many on the net ,that's what it was started for and its taken off in many ways ,maybe not suited that well for music/movies software sales ,the money the do make from the exposure makes up for the small amount of pirates i feel ,almost free advertising, and if it hits those sites youve made the big time ,cause it must be good to be there ?
i do know some like flight1/levelD/DBS/ have managed to code the wrapper well enough to stop many torrents being worth the hassle of cracking and if these companys like orbx did the serial number and made a good wrapper they would have more profit too ...

So how about orbx and there freeware side , pulling them up on the legal use of goggle imagery? this freeware promotes there FTX/orbx or have they stopped using ripped imagery now ,didnt they have a tutorial how to rip goggle imagery for proxy tile thing? ,thats where i learned to do it i think ..

[ronindanbo]

Problem is this does not work so well when a country like NZ has a major ISP that uses the same IP's for all users, therefore you are bound to block the whole of New Zealad coz one bloke torrented a file. Not really good policy....

[toprob]

QUOTE (ronindanbo @ Jul 9 2010, 11:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Problem is this does not work so well when a country like NZ has a major ISP that uses the same IP's for all users, therefore you are bound to block the whole of New Zealad coz one bloke torrented a file. Not really good policy....

Which is one of the reasons why I wouldn't do that here. There's a lot of discussion about tracking by IP in the Orbx thread, but a lot of people have the wrong idea about how IP addresses work -- they think that there is one huge random pool to choose from, but there are lots of ways in which you can end up with an IP address used by another FS fan...

However I do think that with a bit of care tracking IPs, where you cross-reference the time as well, you can be 99.9999% sure that you have the right person. When someone signs up to NZFF, one of the first things we do as part of the validation process is to see if the IP address has already been used. I have seen one IP address which has been used to log onto NZFF four times, over that many years, and I am fairly sure that these were four different, unrelated members. But if this happened with Orbx they should only be concerned with the one which overlaps the torrent download.

The only other major issue I'd have is if you are one serious, honest FS user, a student or similar, who shares a connection with a bunch of other students -- I can see this scenario -- 'Hey, that looks good, what's that?' 'Orbx scenery, cost me a fortune but well worth it!' 'No worries, I'll torrent it...'

And all of a sudden you are labelled as a thief all over the web.

[Splitpin]

Toprob....that "scenario" you mention is very real. Without going into detail.....i have first hand experience. Shared computer (although unaware).
I wish it had just been a case of maybe a one off "download" .......the people concerned have now left this place.....i got internal affairs involved after finding even more stuff relating to MY pc!!! and to clear myself.......hence my last major rebuild.....and that cost me money.

So hard to draw the line....but these people drew it for me. It will never stop (piracy) and anyone who thinks that is a fool.....but when "they" involve other people, because they cant be bothered using their own gear....then i dont care....feed them to the dogs.

I dont think orbx will gain much by posting that list......but good on them for at least doing something .


Marty

[bluebird79]

QUOTE (ronindanbo @ Jul 9 2010, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Problem is this does not work so well when a country like NZ has a major ISP that uses the same IP's for all users, therefore you are bound to block the whole of New Zealand coz one bloke torrented a file. Not really good policy....

Yes this is the same here in Tasmania.. all our ISP goes through Victoria Australia which means you run the risk of blaming 5.6 Million people as being Pirates.. NOT a good idea considering that Under both the Australian and New Zealand Telecommunications Act that is a Fine of not less that $250,000.00 AUD .

Also remember that many use what is called "Clocking IP Address Programs" and what most of these do is look for an IPS that is online and then it uses that IP to hide the persons REAL IPS so you might find your are blaming someone that has NO idea what a Torrent even is let alone Piracy is !!!

I am a member at the ORBX Forum and I have seen the posts there and I can say this much.... THEY GOT SOME OF THE NAMES AND IPS VERY WRONG and one person is about to take them to court along with the Telecommunications Commission... that will cost over 2.5 Million (Taxpayers Money in Court Costs).. so all I ask is be very careful Robin..I hate to see this happen to you as well.

NZFF has a great name within the Flightsim Community and do we really want to go down the same road as what ORBX has ??? I know if I said the same at the ORBX Forum as I have here I would be BANNED..and yes I have been BANNED 3 times at ORBX !!!!

DO I USE "torrents" ..YES I DO.. but remember, VFR Spain, VFR Switzerland, VFR France and many other large Photoreal websites and Designers are turning to "torrents" for users because they can't afford to pay for Dedicated Servers for users to Download their products.

Cheers
Ian

[NZ255]

3 times? haha. Who's taking them to court?

[bluebird79]

QUOTE (NZ255 @ Jul 9 2010, 09:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

3 times? haha. Who's taking them to court?

NO Comment as this all comes under the Australian/New Zealand Telecommunications and Privacy Act.

Cheers
Ian

[toprob]

Funnily enough, I've just validated a new account which was registered under an IP address which was previously used by another member, about a year ago. If it appeared to be concurrent, though, then I'd query it, but I'm pretty sure that this is just a co-incidence. It doesn't alter my opinion, though, that IP matching within a specific time frame is a different thing, and provided Orbx did this -- match times -- then I can't see anything wrong with it.

Ian -- I don't intend to do something similar, although I will continue to 'educate' when I find an IP match. A couple of posts from Orbx -- one saying that one of the culprits has apologised and agreed to pay a penalty, and one purporting the be from the uploader, who has regretted it, illustrate the value of dealing with this by education -- it works for me, so I suspect that it may have worked for them.

[bluebird79]

As a Retired Military Lawyer the one thing I have never forgotten is "You are Innocent until proven Guilty in a Court of Law" and anyone trying to do this outside of the Law is only looking for trouble.

[bluebird79]

QUOTE (toprob @ Jul 9 2010, 10:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

However I do think that with a bit of care tracking IPs, where you cross-reference the time as well, you can be 99.9999% sure that you have the right person.

And all of a sudden you are labelled as a thief all over the web.

I question the "99.9999% sure that you have the right person." as even the Australian Federal Police and FBI E-Crimes Units only rate their success at an average of 12.5% when it comes to tracking a TRUE IP Address.

The Hacking of Avsim.com is a great example.. they didn't follow the requirements under the Law which required them to report the matter to the FBI Crimes Unit and the UK E-Crimes unit who would have then obtained a Court order for the matter to be investigated. I should also add they got it all wrong with their private investigations as the person accused was on Holidays in Spain with his wife and 5 children.

Another good example is the Australian, UK & FBI E-Crimes Units had been investigating an IP Address that was downloading Child Porn here in Tasmania and when they contacted Tasmanian Police to do a Raid on the premises the Local Police did have a good Laugh... the house in question had been burnt to the ground some 3 years earlier :-)

Ian

[Bushmaster]

I agree Ian your sooooo right.

[Christian]

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable with IP tracking either. I don't think these taking the law into your own hands ways are the right approach.

I'm probably one of the few developers who are fairly relaxed about pirates. Yes, they do exist, but I doubt they have much impact on my profit line. Most pirates would never buy my stuff in the first place. And for the ones that would have, I recon there are pirates that turn to customers eventually.

Not that pirating is a great thing, especially where high cost data sets are involved and the companies owning this data don't like their data being pirated (this is a problem for sceneries like ultimate terrain and fsdreamscape meshes). Having said that should my scenery ever be found on someones computer that person could face a damages suit from several companies. And it's also beyond my why you would risk a nasty virus or identity theft for just saving a few bucks.

But personally I spend my time marketing my scenery to potential buyers rather than chasing pirates which is a lost cause anyway. The only thing I do is track sales records if someone sends me a support related email.

My 2 cents...