Editing Poll

[victor_alpha_charlie]

Yeah ok, but does that mean that we have to hold back the people who have forked out for these computers, just because some members can't produce good enough shots?

[Charl]

...

[greaneyr]

QUOTE (victor_alpha_charlie @ Apr 10 2008, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah ok, but does that mean that we have to hold back the people who have forked out for these computers, just because some members can't produce good enough shots?

Ok... I'm not sure I understand. Why is everyone saying those with bigger machines can produce better images? Is it because they could harness the power of their machines to run bigger, better looking add-ons, or because they could run Photoshop? Photoshop will run on almost any machine that can run Windows XP.

If anything, I would have thought the option that favoured those with better hardware would have been 'no enhancements outside FS' as they can produce amazing screenshots using FS alone, whereas those with lower end hardware would have to borrow details from other images to produce the same result.

[Charl]

OK there are three discussions going on around the topic of the forum banner at the moment.

The one that goes:
You shouldn't hold me back because you don't have the money invested in high-end equipment, and
You shouldn't take unfair advantage of me because you have the money invested in high-end equipment
is beside the point entirely, amounts to bickering, and doesn't belong in this forum.
This month's excellent banner screenshot is a shining example of what can be done with reasonable gear and a good eye.

The other two issues which can be interesting, have their own thread,and concern
1. What constitutes a screenshot, and
2. What it is one might want to see on the NZFF banner

[victor_alpha_charlie]

Sorry, I meant to say those with programs like Photoshop.

I really don't see what's wrong with this one rule, which I believe should be the one people go by:

Allow any editing, if people don't like seeing RW images etc in screenshots, don't vote for the one with the RW pic.

Simple.. Everyone's happy that way.

[Charl]

QUOTE (victor_alpha_charlie @ Apr 10 2008, 09:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, I meant to say those with programs like Photoshop.
I really don't see what's wrong with this one rule, which I believe should be the one people go by:
Allow any editing, if people don't like seeing RW images etc in screenshots, don't vote for the one with the RW pic.
Simple.. Everyone's happy that way.

OK that's your take, and you've made your point, several times, in several threads.
There are other points of view too, worth discussing.
I'll take some time to touch on these in Robin's thread shortly.

[greaneyr]

I just posted over in the other thread Charl mentioned in his post. If the majority think edits are fine, then edits it is. I just think we need to call them something apart from screenshots, since they stop being screenshots the minute we modify them.

Apart from that, I can see real merit in letting people go to town from a creativity point of view. Either way works for me. I just know that if I were ever to enter anything, it would probably be pure FS and therefore never be a winner.

EDIT: Maybe I'm just a purist

[victor_alpha_charlie]

QUOTE (Charl @ Apr 10 2008, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK that's your take, and you've made your point, several times, in several threads.
There are other points of view too, worth discussing.
I'll take some time to touch on these in Robin's thread shortly.

I simply can't understand why people don't see that as the answer, hence why I've stressed it so much.

EDIT: Ok, I guess they do, look at the poll results. I guess since I made it I decide the start time?

How about 1 week after it was made? 8pm on Wednesday, the 16th.

[greaneyr]

OR.... how about two classes... 'Pure FS' class and 'Open' class. Keeps everyone happy that way. As Charl said, there are varying opinions on this and we need to be able to see each other's side of the story.

[Charl]

QUOTE (victor_alpha_charlie @ Apr 10 2008, 09:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I simply can't understand why people don't see that as the answer, hence why I've stressed it so much.
EDIT: Ok, I guess they do, look at the poll results. I guess since I made it I decide the start time?
How about 1 week after it was made? 8pm on Wednesday, the 16th.

Ah Tom, man of action, you'll go far your poll is a good one, phrased exactly to get the result you are looking for...
This isn't going to be railroaded through though, read the opening salvo from the forum admin in that thread
There's more to the argument than EDIT!/NO EDIT! and the forum itself is not run democratically.
If it were, you'd be out there doing your share of the admin too

[victor_alpha_charlie]

Not sure what you're on about, but
How did I phrase it so that people would vote for the one I wanted? When I said "No editing rules", I meant no rules on editing rather than "No editing is the best". Oh well

Guess we should leave it open longer then!

[toprob]

As a forum administrator, I'm not comfortable with polls determining rules without a majority vote, or at least giving the majority the chance to vote. Since many of our members don't read all the topics that often, this would mean it would have to be included in the monthly newsletter which goes out at the beginning of each month. I was planning to put up a poll at that time, but since this is here -- and it covers the relevant choices -- I'd be prepared to abide by the decision, provided it remains open at least a week into next month.
-Robin

[victor_alpha_charlie]

QUOTE (toprob @ Apr 10 2008, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As a forum administrator, I'm not comfortable with polls determining rules without a majority vote, or at least giving the majority the chance to vote. Since many of our members don't read all the topics that often, this would mean it would have to be included in the monthly newsletter which goes out at the beginning of each month. I was planning to put up a poll at that time, but since this is here -- and it covers the relevant choices -- I'd be prepared to abide by the decision, provided it remains open at least a week into next month.
-Robin

Sounds fair. Shall we decide on an end date later on?

I probably shouldn't say this, as it will lead to further arguing ( ), but I don't remember the poll for making this new rule being mentioned in any newsletters?

[benwynn]

IMO this discussion has wandered way toooo far off track.

I've voted for the status quo, because the original question asks:

QUOTE

Should editing/importing real world shots into screenshots be allowed in our monthly screenshot comp?[/quote]

Editing/importing real world shots into FS takes things beyond the realm of simulation (and that is the main thrust of NZFF). Relating this back to the particular screenshot which gave rise to the question, if Ian's shot had been "staged" within a virtual NZ setting (employing various period scenery props placed with some scenery tool), it would have been an accurate (or maybe not) simulation of a moment in NZ's ag history.

Just my tu'pennce worth.

[benwynn]

Ive only ever added abit of grass or some clouds in mine over the past when the rulz where normal..
Real world photos are in most of yours scenery's anyway just that the scenery's took months to make and if Ian was to have to build them , or use a old morris and loaders objects "where are they? " id like that object library ,,,oh thats right it was never made and is not avalible ..
real world photos are part of the life of simulation now, everything has a real world photo installed into its model ,,so are we all now expected to learn how to make scenery for our comp shots if we want real world photos ,hey thats easy for me but for some of you ?
this would give me advantage but would proberly take me a week to build a scene so i wouldn't enter ,

the rulz about all this cr@p never had any merit anyway ,one year and a couple of months we did great without this stuiped debate/rule ,i remember how this newer rule got started and how it was ruled on , quick and with no thought to those who never had any probs with it being simple without restrictions..

real world is part of this forum we even have a forum topic that says just that ,real world is part of fsim now "and for years already "and even more so as fsx gets some legs ,so whats so bad about including scenes that show you what it could be like into the future or how it could be built in the sim that is out now "fsx "
the prizes even have realworld parts to them ,they are in a real location,they have real photo textures they are made as real as it gets ...

its as easy as voting for which one you prefer ,and stop putting the brakes on this forums creativity and talents ,its at the end of the day only going to push the wrong people away from the comps and forums

QUOTE

Competition =wiki
ie
Competition is the rivalry of two or more parties over something. Competition occurs naturally between living organisms which coexist in the same environment. For example, animals compete over water supplies, food, and mates. In addition, humans compete for attention, wealth, prestige, and fame.

Competition gives incentives for self improvement. If two watchmakers are competing for business, they will lower their prices and improve their products to increase their sales.[/quote]

if the standards of our comp are easily done by all "whats the point" ,,it would nearly always come down to what addons you have and someone else doesnt ,something with jaggeds or low quality would never get anywhere as it has been since always anyway ...
im going to stop now lol ...

Last edited by creator2003 on Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[benwynn]

Why not just have 2 competitions, once every 2 months instead of the usual 1 per month (So we can still get the prize allowance) 1 for Edits, one for non Edits (As in edits- Major edits like Real Scenery etc, not a bit of Sharpen, Colour etc.

[HardCorePawn]

TBH, I'm still struggling with why edits are an issue?

I personally vote for the picture I like the best... co-incidentally, in most competitions, I'm fairly sure I have been voting for ones that are not edited or only sharpened, contrast adjustments etc (Ian's one with him hanging on the wing being a notable exception)... not because I am anti-editing... some of them a v. good... its just that I think the others were better... like one Kelburn did for the 737 one... where he had several in the shot... a very clever idea well executed (even if it did have a few jaggies to start off with)...

I usually vote for the 'concept'... clever use of a default aircraft with default scenery will get my vote over a boring shot of the levelD 767 with photoreal airport/scenery...

Quite often, I notice that the edited ones (with real life grass etc.) end up looking fake and worse that a decent unedited screenshot.

I dont see machinery or lack thereof being an issue... nothing says you have to be ripping along at 40 FPS and snapping shots from the hip... crank up those scenery settings and place the aircraft where you want it... 'Slew' mode is your friend! Put anti-aliasing right up etc... sure your machine will operate like a snail wearing concrete sneakers, but the end result will look nice...

Photoshop? Why pay for that when GIMP is free and allows you to do all sorts of cool stuff... I think it even allows you to use some photoshop plugins...

As for Ian's latest, while I admire the creativity... I prefer Charl's and Hugh's ones... but thats just me...

[ardypilot]

QUOTE

I personally vote for the picture I like the best...[/quote]
I think HCP summed it up pretty well there- I'd like to see both edits and non-edits entered into the competition and let members pick for their favourite. That's the formula we have been running on for two years and it's worked great until now...

[greaneyr]

To those who don't see why edits are a big deal, I think it's all in the 'name' of what we are supposedly producing.

Screen shot
a reproduction of the current display on a computer screen, saved as a graphics file; also written screenshot; also called [screen capture]

While you could argue that a photoshopped image could just be a 'screen shot' of a full-screen preview of the produced image, I think that would be a tad anal. A screen shot is an exact shot of what was displayed on the screen at the time. Since this forum is about Flight Simulation, you'd tend to think a screen shot would be one from MS flight simulator and MS flight simulator alone.

The term 'screenshot' is misleading if we allow edits. I'm not saying don't allow edits, I'm saying if we do then we should think about changing the competition name.

[victor_alpha_charlie]

Maybe we should call it a Screenshot Art competition then?

I always thought the idea of it was to show what NZFF users were capable of- obviously you want the best looking pic on the site banner, to entice more people to join, and sometimes that shot will be edited, sometimes not.