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What do we need to happen?

An effort to collaborate all freeware New Zealand scenery addons. Discuss the creation and management of the project here.
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Postby greaneyr » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:00 pm

Essentially, these are the various tasks people have ascertained that need to be 'done' before work can begin on this project. I've also added in a few others that I have thought of. As always, if anyone else thinks of anything more then by all means put it down in here.
  • Contact all previously nominated people to see if they are interested in becoming part of this project
  • Decide on a team leader
  • Determine the exact role of the team leader
  • Decide on a name
  • Establish 'ground rules'
  • Build inventory of all work in existence able to be used for this project
  • Decide on what it is exactly that we are trying to complete
  • Ascertain what components will need to be developed (that are either not in existence or cannot be reused)
  • Figure out who is going to do what in order to get there
  • Set standards for each aspect of the project
  • ... are there any more?
Last edited by greaneyr on Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Christian » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:44 pm

greaneyr wrote:
QUOTE (greaneyr @ Jan 14 2008, 10:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Essentially, these are the various tasks people have ascertained that need to be 'done' before work can begin on this project. I've also added in a few others that I have thought of. As always, if anyone else thinks of anything more then by all means put it down in here.
  • Contact all previously nominated people to see if they are interested in becoming part of this project
  • Decide on a team leader
  • Determine the exact role of the team leader
  • Decide on a name
  • Establish 'ground rules'
  • Build inventory of all work in existence able to be used for this project
  • Decide on what it is exactly that we are trying to complete
  • Figure out who is going to do what in order to get there
  • Set standards for each aspect of the project
  • ... are there any more?


Thanks Richard. I think 1-5 should be our prime goals over the next 1-2 weeks. Once that's set in place we should build the inventory of existing stuff, which is going to be the first real challenge!
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Postby LMerraine » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:05 pm

  • Contact all previously nominated people to see if they are interested in becoming part of this project
  • Decide on a team leader
  • Determine the exact role of the team leader
  • Establish 'ground rules'
  • Build inventory of all work in existence able to be used for this project
  • Decide on what it is exactly that we are trying to complete
  • Ascertain what components will need to be developed (that are either not in existence or cannot be reused)
  • Figure out who is going to do what in order to get there
  • Set standards for each aspect of the project

[/quote]

The big thing I think that needs to be done first, is set out the goals, and at what point do you start releasing.

VOZ was not built in one build - and as much as I hate to bring up VOZ - I think they've shown how it can be done.
You need to decide what platform you are going for - fs9 or fsx
Work out a time line - and a rough time when you want to stop the first build and get it out.

Aspects I would like to see done - is the airports, big and small - it's going to be hard, as you could be stepping on some payware developers turf - or at least you would need to set it up so that areas can be turned off, so as to not wipe these out.

Look at what is out there - see what doesn't need to be redesigned - ie don't reinvent the wheel, if there are parts there go for it.

Are you going to go photoreal for the airports? Or use generic, but "true" design using existing tools - think of drop and play design. VOZ started with that, but authors basically offered areas they were working on.

Landclass & Mesh are important - but again, there are payware versions.

AI - Part of what I like about VOZ is the correct gates etc for the planes.

Just to get started :)
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Postby Christian » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:08 pm

very good thoughts.

QUOTE
The big thing I think that needs to be done first, is set out the goals, and at what point do you start releasing.[/quote]

My thinking is we get the team organised first, then make a dump of all scenery we can get, and then we can think about where we want to go. At this point in time all we have is this forum so let's not get ahead of ourselves (my thinking at least).

QUOTE
VOZ was not built in one build - and as much as I hate to bring up VOZ - I think they've shown how it can be done.[/quote]

Completely agree. While I wouldn't like to see a VOZ clone here, they've done good things and we'd be crazy not to learn from their experience and take the good stuff on board.

QUOTE
You need to decide what platform you are going for - fs9 or fsx[/quote]

My thinking is both, simply because both platforms are being supported and each designer uses a different fs version. For example, if we'd make it an FSX project, we couldn't use Lawrie's scenery.

QUOTE
- it's going to be hard, as you could be stepping on some payware developers turf -[/quote]

Don't really agree. Payware is payware for a reason. While VOZ is great it's still a freeware effort and the airports show it. If payware producers (and that includes me) can't produce higher quality than freeware, then what's the point?

QUOTE
Look at what is out there - see what doesn't need to be redesigned - ie don't reinvent the wheel, if there are parts there go for it.[/quote]

One of the main reasons I was pushing for this project, completely agree.

QUOTE
Are you going to go photoreal for the airports? Or use generic, but "true" design using existing tools - think of drop and play design. VOZ started with that, but authors basically offered areas they were working on.[/quote]

I think we have to be realistic with this project. While it would be great to have all NZ airports for free at RealNZ quality, it ain't going to happen. This is simply an attempt to bring freeware under on umbrella and create something where you can improve NZ massively with one download & install. But this being a freeware project it's going to be a colourful ride with all the ups & downs freeware projects bring with them.

QUOTE
Landclass & Mesh are important - but again, there are payware versions.[/quote]

Again, this project simply can't match my mesh & topo simply because I'm using commercial data, and where would we find the money to pay for license fees if this would be made freeware :)

QUOTE
AI - Part of what I like about VOZ is the correct gates etc for the planes.[/quote]

We got a great base with Charl's work. One of my aims is to integrate freeware airports with his Afcads, so we don't have to fiddle around with this stuff anymore. This is the beauty of this project - as new freeware airports are developed we retain the work from previous freeware efforts!

Hope my comments make sense...
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Postby greaneyr » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:43 pm

Christian wrote:
QUOTE (Christian @ Jan 11 2008, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think we have to be realistic with this project. While it would be great to have all NZ airports for free at RealNZ quality, it ain't going to happen. This is simply an attempt to bring freeware under on umbrella and create something where you can improve NZ massively with one download & install. But this being a freeware project it's going to be a colourful ride with all the ups & downs freeware projects bring with them.


I actually misread this at first, but the point I initially twigged to was probably something worthy of discussion in it's own right. I read it that you were talking about the number of airports we were going to model, rather than the quality of them. It got me thinking that perhaps we would need to set a threshold of airports above which must be developed and to a certain standard. I'm not suggesting where this threshold could be. It could be anywhere from "we only do internationals" down to "we only do airports with seal runways" to "we do all airports published in the current VFG".

To quote my initial misread, it would be great to have all NZ airports as part of this project, but in reality that just isn't going to happen. What is an 'airport' exactly? By that, I mean how small do you go before it stops being classed as one and turns into a paddock? I've seen people on this site who enjoy flying to some of the shoddiest ag strips in the country. Some would argue that 'this is part of New Zealand aviation so needs to be included'.

I think there are two issues we need to consider if we finalise a threshold below which we will ignore the strips.

1) The work involved in creating so many airports/airfields/airstrips (obviously there comes a time when there are simply too many to build)
2) The accessibility of sufficient data to be able to build airstrip X to project standards (not only data but also accessibility of the airport itself if necessary)

This is an important point I think. Once we define standards for our airports, we need to build them all to that standard. If someone is missing from an airport, it will be because it is missing in real life and not because we didn't have the data to tell us whether it was or wasn't.

Another option could be to say 'develop all airports above the threshold to a certain standard, but those lower can still be included at people's discretion but need not conform to the standards of the higher airports'.
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Postby LMerraine » Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:03 pm

Thanks Christian for the really good breakdown of what I was suggesting - this is why I feel this all could work - people are thinking honestly.

Definition of an airport varies, and what I would suggest is get the ones that are "approved" basically right, I'm sure if I learnt how to use FSscenery instead of keeping it in my - "one day when I am a multimillionaire and have hours free I will spend a day learning" I could go through and at least start getting some of the airports looking relatively close to what they look like in real life (except custom buildings etc) but at least they would have more life than they do now.

The beauty of VOZ was that different designers were doing there own thing - and then putting it into VOZ. (I hate going back to VOZ for my explanations). So Jane Blane could decide she wants to work on the little back runways around, while Bill Till may want to work on the internationals. Claire Bear may want to work on all the camping huts etc.

At this stage - and for the first release I would like to see all the airports that are in the official guide at least partly realistic.

Are there free meshes out there that would suffice, what about free landclasses? I know they're not as good as the payware - and that I have no problem with - I just think if it's going to be put together, you really want the whole package.

I was worried about the payware designers, for the simple fact, is that there really isn't any payware scenery for Aussie - or at least, not that I've seen. Where as NZ does.

Multi platform I'm not 100% on, as I thought there were somethings that didn't work in FS9 that was made for FSX. Oh I'm going to hate typing VOZ, but they haven't tried to make it for both platforms, they have two versions. Again - this is showing my lack of knowledge in design work, so please forgive me if I'm making a mountain out of the sand castle my daughter built.

So in my mind, this is the base that we should be aiming for.

Getting the prolific designers for NZ working on the same page, if someone is a big designer of freeware, and continues to release on their own, then you're still going to be in the same boat. I think a good manual - though not read by all, if well designed can really show these designers for the geniuses they are. A great example of a great manual - get the 9dragons one. I read that cover to cover.

Working out the basics - Airports in the initial release - and what has been done, or what needs touching up. I do not believe we aim for getting all the "official" airports 100% - but at least getting them more populated than what they currently are - again, even if it's just the aprons, and buildings - generic as they may be.

LC & Mesh - is there a freeware option, that will jump on board.

Other unique touches - Cabins, lighthouses, etc.

People are going to want it first for the better renditions even basic of the airports they visit. At least in my opinion.
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Postby creator2003 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:59 pm

I personally were thinking of photoreal buildings for all the airports i had a part in building . Ive put in Naiper , Raglan ,Hamilton city ,soon hamilton ap ,i planned on moving on down to taupo,nzpn and building them aswell ..
At the end of the day i thought gee what a great idea joining others with there talents and helping others build stuff for FS something i do anyway
i generally thought we mite all do our parts that we mite be good at to cover each talent needed to build a airport ,this way we would be knocking them out at a pretty good speed etc
i was also hoping to learn some things .
are we just going to put together a library of stuff already out there into one bundle and cover airports in default objects and the odd photoreal building now and again ??

I class myself ok at what i do and would like to do more to give back to the community i need to learn more ofcourse and was hoping this was the way to see my dreams and many others come true with an even better fsimnz .
I dont want to step on any toes but would really like to see a pretty good rendition of NZ for all to enjoy . citys landmarks and what ever else we can do with our skills together .

put it this way if i only had to make some buildings and textures and someone else made afcads ,and another placed them ,another adds fsx / missions to it ,someone makes a installer/agns and another beta test it , it becomes very quick indeed ,"more hands make light work "

tell me if im way of track here ...
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Postby greaneyr » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:25 pm

creator2003 wrote:
QUOTE (creator2003 @ Jan 11 2008, 06:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I personally were thinking of photoreal buildings for all the airports i had a part in building . Ive put in Naiper , Raglan ,Hamilton city ,soon hamilton ap ,i planned on moving on down to taupo,nzpn and building them aswell ..
At the end of the day i thought gee what a great idea joining others with there talents and helping others build stuff for FS something i do anyway
i generally thought we mite all do our parts that we mite be good at to cover each talent needed to build a airport ,this way we would be knocking them out at a pretty good speed etc
i was also hoping to learn some things .
are we just going to put together a library of stuff already out there into one bundle and cover airports in default objects and the odd photoreal building now and again ??

I class myself ok at what i do and would like to do more to give back to the community i need to learn more ofcourse and was hoping this was the way to see my dreams and many others come true with an even better fsimnz .
I dont want to step on any toes but would really like to see a pretty good rendition of NZ for all to enjoy . citys landmarks and what ever else we can do with our skills together .

put it this way if i only had to make some buildings and textures and someone else made afcads ,and another placed them ,another adds fsx / missions to it ,someone makes a installer/agns and another beta test it , it becomes very quick indeed ,"more hands make light work "


This is the beauty of a group effort. People need only contribute in areas where they feel they could offer some useful input. We all have different skillsets and it's great that we will each be able to feel like we have contributed.

The other really good point I think you raised was 'giving back'. I know I for one am certainly guilty of taking more than I give from this great hobby of ours. Sure, I've done things for the NZ flight simming community. NZ weather on SATCO, NZ weather on VATSIM, numerous guides for newbies plus a few releases of late, but none have really made me feel like I've seriously improved anyone's simming experience. By being part of this group, I hope I will be able to say that I have.
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Postby LMerraine » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:32 pm

I agree, I would love to give something back, but in reality the best I could do is quick fixes if I learnt FS Scenery, until someone like Creator has time to get around to that particular airport.

If that was acceptable, then I would be happy to get my text books out and start learning
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Postby greaneyr » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:28 pm

LMerraine wrote:
QUOTE (LMerraine @ Jan 11 2008, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree, I would love to give something back, but in reality the best I could do is quick fixes if I learnt FS Scenery, until someone like Creator has time to get around to that particular airport.

If that was acceptable, then I would be happy to get my text books out and start learning


Look at it this way.. If you do a small amount and contribute to a project that has a positive impact on a lot of people, isn't that just as good as if you do a large amount and impact positively on one or two people?
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Postby Ian Warren » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:12 pm

Its simple ...

" Once that's set in place we should build the inventory of existing stuff, which is going to be the first real challenge!" .................. that was the first thing done before all the above writing !

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Postby LMerraine » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:39 pm

So how do we go about this, find out the authors of the freeware stuff, and ask if we can include it?
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Postby Snowman » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:11 pm

LMerraine wrote:
QUOTE (LMerraine @ Jan 11 2008, 11:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So how do we go about this, find out the authors of the freeware stuff, and ask if we can include it?


Ask right here on NZFF.................... most of the authors of freeware NZ sceneries are right here, members of NZFF !!
Robin Corn, Ian Warren, Myself, Mike Andrews, Tui McInnes, Deane Bounton, and the list goes on............................

Lawrie. >nzflag<
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Postby Ian Warren » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:43 pm

We also have 'Dan Mitchell' itching to get in and do models , i have been looking at both Wiggy and NZCH , the later versions , . With idea going , best to get findings , it has to be for both FS9/FSX , ryw12 would be weeded out with a home grown building to replace , with Lawrie possibly placing it , just order a shed sorta thing .
It going to take time to sort what i have , and get up to speed and finish what i'm doing now .
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Postby LMerraine » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:52 pm

Ok authors - what scenery has been designed, and ready to go - another thing to think of is a place to upload files etc toget the whole thing together.

http://aip.net.nz/pdf/AD_1.3.pdf

So what airports are available for the project?
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Postby Christian » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:20 pm

@ Richard

Standards are a difficult question. Since this is a freeware project and should be fun, my thinking is that we maybe have 2 files, one that passes the 'realism police' test (got that from the GPL community) and a second that includes the 'rest'. That alone will be a horrid administrative task though...

In regards to size, I think the VOZ group has given us a great guideline. Freeware authors are likely to either model their own backyard or something they're passionate about. If that happens to be the small farm strip from around the corner, why not. There are some fun farming strips in VOZ. I think rather than saying we want every singe airport, we'd rather take what we get (a much more realistic approach for freeware, I think).

@ LMerraine

Completely agree about the VOZ approach. That's one of its strengths. People build their backyard and you never know what goodies you get with the next release. Don't apologise for per-using VOZ as an example. We should have a close look at what they did, because we can only learn from their successes/mistakes.

There is Aussie payware. Believe it or not, I just did some research, unrelated to this, and a payware version of Melbourne which really isn't very good from what I've seen is in the top 10 most bought sceneries on fspilotshop! Plus Orbx will flood the market with there stuff soon, an of course, I'm also selling Aussie payware...

I wasn't clear on FS9/FSX, sorry. I meant a dual install like VOZ. Since we have FS9 and FSX designers in this group we really have no choice rather than to cater to both groups. Initially the FS9 and FSX versions will probably be different.

I know landclass/mesh is a pain, but licensing prevents me to include my freeware versions. Maybe the best solution will be a pointer to my website. It'll be silly to offer inferiour stuff, most people have my 75m mesh and landclass anyway...

@ Creator2003

I think this group is about 2 things: bundling existing freeware together & designing new stuff in a team. If you like to tackle something, don't wait for any order, roll up your sleeves and get cracking, like Ian is currently doing ;) So, yes you're on the right track with your thinking :)

@ Ian

good on ya for taking charge. We need some people who roll up their sleeves and get their hands dirty ;) I don't want to make a big deal over the planning side, but we do need servers and a bit of direction, otherwise this group will quickly starve off (trust me I got experience). But please don't let that restrain you from doing work. The aim of this project isn't to put all scenery design on hold or strangle designers, but quite the opposite. I'm simply thinking already about some infrastructure we need later on. No use building trains and not having any railtracks... Bottomline: If you want to get this project moving, please feel free to liase with other designers and get cracking!

Christian
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Postby greaneyr » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:17 pm

Christian wrote:
QUOTE (Christian @ Jan 14 2008, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
@ Richard

Standards are a difficult question. Since this is a freeware project and should be fun, my thinking is that we maybe have 2 files, one that passes the 'realism police' test (got that from the GPL community) and a second that includes the 'rest'. That alone will be a horrid administrative task though...


I wasn't talking about having a huge amount of standards to conform to. Merely trying to make sure what people are doing will play nicely with what people have already done. I've written a guide on writing and checking AFCADs and I think that would pretty much cover everything I would see as 'standards'. Just need a place to upload it now.
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Postby Christian » Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:50 pm

greaneyr wrote:
QUOTE (greaneyr @ Jan 19 2008, 10:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wasn't talking about having a huge amount of standards to conform to. Merely trying to make sure what people are doing will play nicely with what people have already done. I've written a guide on writing and checking AFCADs and I think that would pretty much cover everything I would see as 'standards'. Just need a place to upload it now.


Sorry, must have misunderstood you then... We could consider sharing docs like this on scribd.com. another site that google rates highly...
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Postby greaneyr » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:32 pm

Christian wrote:
QUOTE (Christian @ Jan 15 2008, 04:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sorry, must have misunderstood you then... We could consider sharing docs like this on scribd.com. another site that google rates highly...


Good idea. We could either go with that or a wiki. They have them hosted for free at www.wikidot.com
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