Laptop

[Kelburn]

It's once again that time.
I have been looking at a few models and was just wondering on your thoughts... (I am having this for general use though I want it to run FS9 as the game I play)

All have windows 7

ASUS:

K61IC; Intel Core Duo 2.2, 4GB RAM/320GB HDD, nVidia GT220M 1G (VRAM - dedicated I assume?)
K52JR; 2.26 i3-350, 4GB, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5470 1GB
K52JC; 2.4 i5-450M, 4GB/500GB, nVidia GT 310M 1GB

HP (DV6-30XX):

DV6-3005TX; 2.26 i3-350M, 4GB/500GB, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5650 1GB
DV6-3006AX; AMD Dual core 2.30m 3GB/320GB, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5470

Acer:

AS5741G-334G50Mn; 2.13 i3-330, 4GB/500GB, nVidia GT 330M 1GB
AS5542G-304G50Mn; AMD Athlon Dual Core 2.0, 4GB/500GB, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5470 512MB
ASAS5551G-834G50MI; AMD Phenom III Triple Core N830 2.1, 4GB/500GB, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5650 1GB


Also I was potentially thinking of getting an Apple MacBook Pro 13" and installing windows on it for windows only applications ie FS9, cause I really like Apple for general usage. (also I can get an educational discount)

The specs for that model are:
Intel Core Duo 2.4, 4GB/250GB, nVidia 320M 256MB

Thanks in advance. Note, hard drive space doesn't bother me too much though so don't really take that into account. Also I'd be thrilled if you can comment and maybe compare some of the models I have listed?
Thanks again,
Kelburn

[IslandBoy77]

If you are interested, here are some thoughts from someone who sells / works on laptops / desktop PCs:

Asus - poor after-sales warranty with a bad attitude, long delays in servicing (up to 15-20 days), but well-spec'd / priced and generally fair quality. Have not sold them for over a year due to their abysmal warranty service.

HP / Compaq - always a reasonable bet for quality / price. Servicing a bit slow, but no worse than Asus.

Acer - have been trying very hard to capture the NZ market, warranty experience quite variable but generally fairly good, well priced/ specd, builds a bit on the cheap side.

Gaming / simming on a laptop is generally not a good idea unless you absolutely "have to", as you are stuck with the CPU / vid card you get with the laptop (unless you're a huge geek and can bust into a laptop to do very tricky surgery), and often you're limited to 4GB of RAM (which might seem like a lot, but truly isn't). So, spend as much as you possibly can afford, try to get a 64-bit OS, and I'd recommend 8GB right out of the block. I wouldn't bother with SSD drives at the moment, as they are too expensive for a relatively small performance gain - better to spend the extra on CPU / RAM. Radeon 5000 series is definitely the way to go for graphic card - my desktop with HD5750 & 8GB RAM gives around 14-18 fps for FSX using a 12-month-old quad core 2.6GHz CPU - with all sliders pretty much maxed (including nasty ones like shadows, water & the other "hogs") - so FS9 will run v smooth.

As for dual-booting on Apple - you need to ask yourself why you want to do that? If you already own an Apple device, that's fine. But buying an Apple, partitioning the drive, purchasing Win 7, keeping Windows up to date etc is an odd way to go about things. Further, you WILL end up with issues somewhere along the way, as Apple doesn't make their entry-level to mid-range laptops with gaming of any sort in mind, and their gaming-capable machines are at least $800-$1500 more than the PC equivalent. Since FS9 / FSX are Windows-only apps, farting about with trying to shoe-horn them into an Apple ecosystem is asking for trouble IMHO. I don't particularly like Apple gear or their walled-garden approach to things, but it is very well made. Windows, however, is not designed to run on the Mac gear per se, even though it will. While most of Apple's parts are standard, they do tend to use "customised" bits regularly, and that's where your problems will come in (drivers on Windows - you don't want to open that pandora's box unless you really want to test your geek muscles... ) The specs on the Apple you list are very last-year (I mean no offense by that - it just is) - obsolete when you get it (as are most of the entry level to lower mid-range PC-equivalents). All laptops feel their age fairly quickly, so you don't want 2-year-old technology (it's not just the old CPU - it's all it's supporting infrastructure / chipset stuff that is old too) in a "new" machine. Not an Apple-only problem of course, but the example you list is "guilty as charged"

As a last thought - screen size. Some people just buy a 14-15" laptop with the intention of hooking up a 22" or 24" LCD widescreen. If this is your intent, and you plan to run the laptop mostly off LCD and not use it's own screen much / at all, you might want to seriously ask why you want a laptop: is the bit of space-saving really worth the extra expense and compromises? Otherwise, give serious consideration to 17" models - they're quite a bit more expensive, but once you've used a 17" laptop, anything less is a postage stamp...

I always recommend 1 thing above all else to my clients thinking of purchasing a laptop. If it's the only thing you take away from what I've written, remember this - spend as much as you absolutely can! Easy to say, but unless you buy "more than what you need" now, you'll be feeling the pinch within 12 months - much cheaper to spend more now than have serious regrets & be eyeing a new laptop in 1-2 years...

Hope that helps in some way. You can always PM me if you want.

[Kelburn]

Cheers for that.
So ASUS probably aren't the most worthwhile then?

But anyway there's no room for me to get a desktop and I want a laptop for the portability side-also my situation means that a laptop is the only feasible option for me.
My previous one spent a bit of time at home but also quite a bit moving around.

Out of the machines I spec'd up there which ones looked the best to do the job?

[IslandBoy77]

Yes, if poss, skip the Asus - I really don't think their poor service / attitude is worth the risk.

My pick from the ones you list is the DV6-3005TX; 2.26 i3-350M, 4GB/500GB, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5650 1GB. If there is a model up that has a faster CPU (say, 2.6Ghz or so), that would be preferable.

My reasons for not picking the others:

DV6-3006AX; AMD Dual core 2.30m 3GB/320GB, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5470 - 3GB RAM, only 5470 graphics, AMD Duals tend to be too light for gaming on laptops.
AS5741G-334G50Mn; 2.13 i3-330, 4GB/500GB, nVidia GT 330M 1GB - It's an Acer, only 2.13GHz, nvidia graphics.
AS5542G-304G50Mn; AMD Athlon Dual Core 2.0, 4GB/500GB, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5470 512MB - It's an Acer, only 2GHz AMD, only 5470 graphics
ASAS5551G-834G50MI; AMD Phenom III Triple Core N830 2.1, 4GB/500GB, ATI Mobility Radeon HD 5650 1GB - A close contender, but still an Acer and only 5650 graphics. This would be #2 choice, but only "on paper" as I've never used an X3 CPU-d laptop

Notes:
AMD: I do really like AMD chips, and sell them 90% of the time for desktops. Their faster CPUs on the laptops are great - esp with 4GB of RAM & a good graphic card - but too light for gaming or "heavier lifting" at this point in time. The next year or so will see them bringing out their new line of mobile CPUs with better GPU integration, so perhaps they will be worth a shot then - but not yet.
Acer: As mentioned below, they are trying very hard to be #1 (in desktops & mobile computing), they are priced well, and they've upped their support game with much better local servicing. However, I still find their physical builds a bit Dell-ish at the moment.
nVidia: I used to use nVidia exclusively, but they've been "also-rans" for a while - mainly due to poor / buggy drivers. They will still do the job, but I believe ATI is ahead, and will probably stay there for a while yet.

Hope that is what you're after!

[whitei]

What do you think about the Toshiba laptops IB?, I have had a satelite for a while and it seems to keep going in the harsh enviroment I work in - grain dust. I am thinking of upgrading to a newer one as I have had no trouble with this one and runs fs9 ok but I want to get FSX up and going, and its to cold to go to the man cave at the moment and use the main pc.

Cheers

Ian W

[Kelburn]

Hey thanks.
Yeah that was a very good answer. So I take it you don't like acer . My last laptop was an Acer (5540G or something like that) didn't do too badly tbh.

I had a feeling HP would be where I'd end up tho.

Do you have any suggestions of where else to look though I'd probably guess they'd be the same etc for the parts... they all have the same graphics cards (mainly ATI 5470, or 5650)

Cheers

[IslandBoy77]

QUOTE (whitei @ Aug 12 2010, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you think about the Toshiba laptops IB?, I have had a satelite for a while and it seems to keep going in the harsh enviroment I work in - grain dust. I am thinking of upgrading to a newer one as I have had no trouble with this one and runs fs9 ok but I want to get FSX up and going, and its to cold to go to the man cave at the moment and use the main pc.

Cheers

Ian W

Hey Ian

Yes, I like the Toshibas - well made, pretty good pricing, servicing is ok. If you look at the comments I've made on Kelburn's questions, you'll see where I'm thinking with specs. As I've said before, spend as much as you can since it's always v expensive or physically near-impossible to do major changes later on.

Peter

[IslandBoy77]

QUOTE (Kelburn @ Aug 12 2010, 08:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey thanks.
Yeah that was a very good answer. So I take it you don't like acer . My last laptop was an Acer (5540G or something like that) didn't do too badly tbh.

I had a feeling HP would be where I'd end up tho.

Do you have any suggestions of where else to look though I'd probably guess they'd be the same etc for the parts... they all have the same graphics cards (mainly ATI 5470, or 5650)

Cheers

The Acers are ok, I suppose - but I do find their build quality a bit flimsy, and that isn't a good thing on a laptop. Having said that, I've sold a couple over the last 7 years, and to the best of my knowledge they're still trucking along. But I'm not a believer in "just barely good enough" - I've played that game too many times over the years and it just hasn't been worth it. So, I go with that which I trust MORE, and stand the slight extra cost. So, the brands that I find to be well-built AND reasonable value for money are HP / Compaq & Toshiba. One brand I haven't had any experience with yet is the new Gateways. They are branded the same as the old company of Gateway, but I understand that the "new" Gateway is not the same company now that it has been bought-out & reorganised. One of my suppliers is pushing the Gateway brand hard, and they claim it is very well built with good NZ service. However, I haven't had anyone wanting to buy a laptop from me in the last few months, so haven't been able to "test the theory"!

How do you mean "Do you have any suggestions of where else to look though I'd probably guess they'd be the same etc for the parts"? Do you mean other brands? Or do you mean places to purchase? For brands, Toshiba is worth a look. For purchase, there's me!

The main things you want are:
1) 4GB RAM with ability to go to at least 8GB
2) DDR2, pref DDR3
3) ATI HD 5600 or 5700 series - the higher the better
4) 64-bit Win 7 - pref business if you can get it within the price (since it has excellent backup features - makes handling backups far easier & u dont need 3rd party stuff)
5) Fastest CPU you can get, pref 2.4GHz or better
6) One of the new iCore series - the higher the better (not sure if they are building 5 & 7 series in laptops yet - haven't been keeping a close eye on the laptops over the last couple of months)
7) 15.6" screen at least, pref 17" - remember they are all widescreen these days, so a 15.6" wide is only 7.5" tall (19cm)
8) If you can get SATA3 & USB 3 - take them!

We are at one of those change-over points in computer hardware, where there is going to be a pile of "last year's" stuff glutting the market. Bear in mind that the new standards within 2 years will be DDR3, USB 3, SATA3, iCore series.

It can all get a bit much, but if you persevere with getting the best you can afford with the above guidelines, you'll be set for much longer than those taking the cheap road. Case history: Have a client who wanted a laptop to last him 5 years plus, had the money to spend, wanted to use FS9. He ended up spending more than $5k 2 years ago on a 17" Asus (!) gaming rig, with twin 256MB vid cards, 4GB RAM, Vista Ultimate and lots of bells and whistles. 2 year's on, and it is still feeling pretty good and he gets great FS9 results even though the graphic cards are not really suitable for FS9 and are pretty average by today's standards. When he plonks 7 on there at some point, I think he will see a nice little lift in performance, and will still be going well in another 2 or 3 years. Of course, if he goes to FSX he's stuffed, as the graphic cards are aimed at FPS games, not simming... Of course, he would spend only $3.5k today for something better, but then things have improved a lot in the interim.

[Syncop8r]

I was out laptop shopping with my partner a couple of months ago, in the end she settled on an ASUS because it had a 2 year warranty and everything else was 1 year, also we were told that they make all their own components which the other manufacturers use.
Her previous one was an Acer which completely died so she didn't want another one of those.
Were looking at Toshiba but something put us off in the end (can't remember what - maybe price for similar specs?).

Those Macminis look interesting....

[IslandBoy77]

Yup, the Asus laptops do have 2 year international warranties. That would be great if they weren't so awful at supporting them! And yes, I understand they manufacture a lot of their parts, but from what I understand, no more or less so than many others (although not all).

Be mindful that the Mac Minis are a box of compromises - v small form factor, v hard physically to get into, and as limited as a laptop in terms of upgrade (due to v small size and no ability to change PSU, thereby restricting one in choice of CPU / graphic cards). And don't forget, you have to buy a legal copy of Windows to plonk on as a dual-boot - thereby prompting the question "Why buy a Mac if you're going to put Windows on it?".

All PCs / laptops, whether Mac or Windows, have a place for someone. However, all in the entry level and many in the mid-range are unsuitable for simming or anything approaching serious gaming - esp in terms of expansion / future-proofing. The old saying holds very true: you get what you pay for.

I realise I am bringing out a lot of negatives in these posts. What I am trying to do is "encourage" people to think carefully about what they are buying, why they are buying it, and to prompt some consideration to be taken as to the future rather than "good enough for today". And yes, even the likes of Asus and Acer (and the Mac Minis) still largely do what they are designed to do and provide a fair value for what they are intended. Few people appear to think through the "consequences" of purchasing computer systems that aren't suited to that purpose for which they were purchased, so I'm trying to provide "food for thought". And even the warranty thing for Asus will have incredibly variable results. But from my observation of the general attitude of that particular provider for the NZ market, I give them a fail (and I doubt their attitude will change any time soon). That's not to say that the others have any better attitude, but most of "the others" have actual people on the ground in NZ, and I haven't seen more than slowness from them - not unwillingness to put things right (which isn't to say that they also might balk like Asus does when push comes to shove).

[Kahu]

I bought an Acer 5741G, had have been really impressd with how it runs FSX, most my settings are mid to high and I normally get 25fps. I have been really impressed and extremely happy since it only cost $1500.
specs are
2.4 i5
4gb ddr3
nvidia GT 320m 1GB

One thing i always do is run the laptop on a USB pad fan.

[Syncop8r]

I guess at the end of the day if they all have similar specs there's probably not much difference between them. A lot of the components are probably are the same underneath. (I'm guessing here, but are they really that different?) Salesman advice probably comes down more to what model they've been told to get rid of first.
Have heard that Dell is ok but if something does go wrong it has to be sent very far away...?

Are laptops that fixable if something does go wrong anyway? The motherboard died on the last one...

[IslandBoy77]

Yes, by and large all the internal components are v similar, if not identical, all pulled from the same pool of resources. The motherboards tend to be peculiar to each manufacturer, but not always. Chipsets, hdds, vid cards, ram, cpu - all stock.

I've heard that the Dells have a fairly high return rate - picked this info up from various US forums, so don't know what NZ is like (although have heard talk here & there of them being not so good). Generally, Dell has been having a number of issues with quality - and since Dells aren't assembled in NZ, we can take a certain degree of confidence in the US info being applicable to us. In short, I would sell a Dell on TM if ever given one...

In terms of repairs, this is another place where laptops fail woefully. Average price to replace motherboard is $500 - $750 (have had this confirmed multiple times from multiple vendors). So, either buy an extended warranty (as most motherboard faults occur around the 14-16 month mark), or be prepared to chuck your laptop and get another if the mobo dies. Fixing laptops is fairly expensive, as they are difficult to get into (average time is 30-45 mins just to get in, never mind doing the work - of course some laptops are easier than others, and if any given model comes in regularly, those doing the repairs can become more proficient and pare the time down to 15 mins or so), the parts are small and therefore expensive, and laptops tend to have typical problems you don't see on a desktop: liquid spills, people standing on them, people tripping over power cords (which has a number of results: broken case, fractured motherboard, broken screen, broken power plug - or all 4...), people cracking the screens by flexing the surround (eg someone grabbing screen to turn laptop to show someone something more clearly - happens a lot...).

So, I reiterate one of my earlier points: does a person really NEED a laptop? Unless one absolutely HAS to have portability, don't go laptop. Not worth the hassle / higher cost etc. Don't forget also: laptops are very "stealable" and easy to move then "resell". If a person HAS to have space-saving, an "all in one" or SFF is a better bet than a laptop, although they have their own problems / limitations.

[Syncop8r]

QUOTE (IslandBoy77 @ Aug 14 2010, 11:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Average price to replace motherboard is $500 - $750

We were quoted about $1200, hence the new laptop!

[Ian Warren]

A laptop could also be viable for me in my work place , some machines require monitoring , many sit there and read or play with there communicators (cellphones) , ideal to quietly plug away at the autogen .

[IslandBoy77]

QUOTE (Syncop8r @ Aug 14 2010, 12:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We were quoted about $1200, hence the new laptop!

Yes, I've heard some are that high - all the Macs are. The average is less, but certainly older or higher spec'd models tend to be over the $1k mark - although I've personally only seen Windows-based 1 (a couple of Mac ones though)

[IslandBoy77]

The thing I'd like people to take away from all this is "think about it". There is a very strong "push" by the manufacturers & chain stores for people to buy laptops. However, just because laptops are being "pushed" doesn't mean they suit the average person (9 times out of 10, they don't). For example, there are regular pushes for Xbox and the PS3. I'm a gamer, but the Xbox and PS3 are not suited to me, even if they are slightly tempting. But I've done the exercise, sat down and looked at what they offer, and have realised that I am NOT a person who "should" be owning either an Xbox or PS3. However, there most certainly ARE people for whom those devices are a perfect fit.

The same is very true with the desktop vs SFF vs laptop vs netbook vs tablet products. I say, buy whatever suits a person - just don't buy it for the wrong reason. If a person's reason for purchasing ANY device is to "be cool", because someone told them they "need" it, because of some nebulous "I have to have it" reason, or anything else not based on what they NEED and what is SUITED to them, then purchasing ANY product is a foolish thing to do (and clearly this is true for everything in life). All that being said, there ARE some specific negatives associated with small and / or portable devices that most people are either blissfully unaware of, or that they ignore, or that they don't weight up correctly. I'm very big on my clients getting the right tool for the right job. It means I miss out on a lot of business because I won't rip people off like the chain stores do, but my conscience is clear as I always provide my clients with what they NEED, not what makes me the most dosh. We should all be kind to ourselves and treat ourselves the same way, not letting advertising / peer pressure force us into buying decisions of products that don't really suit us (and I remind myself of this at the same time... )

[dbcunnz]

Asus N61JQ i7-720QM, 4GB RAM, 500GB HDD, 16' LED HD, ATI HD5730M $1,899.00+GST
http://www.pcpacific.net/product_info.php?...be4afd40c146978

16" Frameless Colourshine LED (1366*768), Intel Quad Core i7-720QM (1.6GHz, turbo up to 2.8GHz, 6MB L8 Cashe),
2*2GB DDR3 1066 RAM, 500GB/7200RPM HDD, ATI HD5730M 1GMB DDR3 VRAM, Windows 7 Professional 64 bit,
DVD-SMD, 802.11b/g/n, 10/100/1000LAN, 2.0MP Webcam, 90W Adaptor, 6cell 4800mAh,
Bluetooth V2.1+EDR, HDMI, ESATA, Express Gate+, 2 Year Global Warranty
Altec Lansing® speakers;SRS Premium Sound
1x Express card;1x Microphone-in jack;1x Headphone-out jack (S/PDIF);1x VGA port/Mini D-sub 15-pin for external monitor;1x RJ45 LAN Jack for LAN insert;1x HDMI;1x WLAN/Bluetooth On/Off switch;1x E-SATA;5in1(SD/MMC/MS/XD/SM) Card Reader;2x USB 2.0+ 1x USB 3.0
Key Benefits
16â€￾ HD FRAMELESS Colourshine LED
Switchable ATI HD5730M/1GB DDR3 VGA, 3DM>7000
high-performance SRS Dolby Altec-Lansing speakers
USB3 + soft palm rest + Numeric Keyboard
Multi-touchpad

[Ian Warren]

QUOTE (IslandBoy77 @ Aug 14 2010, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"think about it". )

U got me thinking , .......... White wall since Saturday Avro .. in Hospital , had i have a PC through 40 hours really could have made it ... well no more hospital least i have a .. AGN pc , now me head is so sore i,ll sign out

[Timmo]

Im in the same boat and want to buy a decently powerful laptop before the GST rise at the end of the month

I wanting to go with either Asus or Toshiba due to the higher quality in my experience (and warranty return info that I've dug out)....but could be persuaded to something else (i.e. HP) if I can be convinced that the quality is ok

some requirements:

4+ GB RAM
Dedicated graphics 512MB +
Something of at least i5 grunt (what are some other good options from AMD?)
500 GB + harddrive (although probably easier/cheaper to store externally)


So, potentially something like the Asus G51 or N61?

Any other ideas?