Fit and Proper Person?

[HercFeend]

Fit and Proper Person?

[gojozoom]

Ok, I see where they're coming from, but I think this coin has two sides as always.

Think about it this way : if you have a crazy party on your 30's birthday and drink or use other legal drogs that doesn't mean that you're an irresponsible (or improper) person, does it? However If he'd be under the effect of any drogs when flying that's a totally different case. Pilots are only humans like you or me, and I don't think that they should crack their careers and humiliate them publicly just because they had some fun like we all do.

[IslandBoy77]

QUOTE (gojozoom @ Aug 6 2010, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, I see where they're coming from, but I think this coin has two sides as always.

Think about it this way : if you have a crazy party on your 30's birthday and drink or use other legal drogs that doesn't mean that you're an irresponsible (or improper) person, does it? However If he'd be under the effect of any drogs when flying that's a totally different case. Pilots are only humans like you or me, and I don't think that they should crack their careers and humiliate them publicly just because they had some fun like we all do.

Presuming of course that getting smashed and stoned is a good definition of "fun"....

[towerguy]

most of this "fit and proper" stuff is cr@p - PC rubbish put out by doo gooders that have obviously NEVER been on a wings course!
what someone does on their "off" time - provided it's not illegal or hurting someone - is their business. So long as they are sensible sober and observe all guidelines ref times before duty etc then I don't have a problem. So long as they can do their job correctly.
If my pilot has 1 too many and blows 0.081 2 days before reporting for duty then why the hell should they lose their entire career for it - yes give him a kick in the backside and let him/her know that there will be consequences if it happens again - but really people - get a grip on reality. We have a criminal system that dishes out the punishment to offenders - who the hell do we and the press think we/they are trying to punish over and above by the court of public opinion!

[IslandBoy77]

QUOTE (towerguy @ Aug 7 2010, 09:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the court of public opinion!

Yes, that "court" has far too big a mouth on it these days...

[Syncop8r]

A bit more info on it: http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/4000...to-fight-ruling

It says he was on call at the time.
Mind you I just re-read it and couldn't see anything saying he was drunk whilst on call.

Maybe best for me not to speculate as the media only give us bits and pieces of information and we never know the whole story.

[deeknow]

Not to trivialise this issue or anything, but I'm interested in this bit from the article...
"The pilot survived the police inquiry"
Does that mean some people DONT survive police inquiries? Do they die of some mysterious police-cell wall born illnes?

The whole on-duty thing is what concerns me the most. The beat-up about BZP is a shame, ok I know its illegal NOW .. but a few months ago people were eating fistfulls of these things.

[IslandBoy77]

QUOTE (deeknow @ Aug 7 2010, 09:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.. but a few months ago people were eating fistfulls of these things.

Why was that, do you think? (seriously - not being flippant or sarcastic - why was that?) Were people having such awful lives that they needed "pick me ups" that badly? Enquiring minds want to know...

[Bazza]

I have a rellie working in the Mineral Mines in Australia, where the conditions of work means you can be breath-tested every morning. A failure is instant dismissal - no discussion, tribunals, commissions of enquiry or anything else.
These are the conditions attached to having a job there. Obviously they don't want drunks working in a potentially dangerous occupation. What's so precious about airline pilots..? The same rules apply to tanker drivers.
Can't see a problem here at all, if you don't like the rules, don't take the job.

[deaneb]

Yes - I spent a week up at a huge gold mine in PNG. Everybody blows into breathlyser every morning as you go thru gate. There is a huge safety culture at these sites. In my time in RNZAF we were subject to random drug testing as part of the job, there is no room for drugs in aviation (both engineering or aircrew) as safety is very important. Simple fact is - if you want to work in the industry then I believe you need to abide by the rules set by the employer, provided they are sensible and not too draconian.

[Timmo]

QUOTE (IslandBoy77 @ Aug 7 2010, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why was that, do you think? (seriously - not being flippant or sarcastic - why was that?) Were people having such awful lives that they needed "pick me ups" that badly? Enquiring minds want to know...

Well, they are far safer than drinking for one.....horrible (chew your face off and feel like darnation the next day) but safer. The whole thing was a knee jerk reaction led by Jim Anderton and, in my opinion, is representative why our drug usage and abuse rates are so high.

(not that I am suggesting being under the influence of any substance is a good idea when operating machinery, but I also think it is very bad public policy to simply ban things that cause little harm, based on little/no scientific basis and that will simply be replaced by another, possibly more harmful substance)

[A185F]

I would have to strongly agree with towerguy on this one. What someone does in their off time is their business as long as it has nothing to do with the airline/whatever. A great operator whilst on the weekend or whatever may just make the mistake of having 1 too many and just tip the scales, like a hell of a lot of people, but he just may get pulled over. We ALL make mistakes. Stupid mistake but loosing an entire career over it is ridiculous.
Of course, if pissed on the job, well that's a different story.

And yes about the blokes in the mines and being alcohol free but that's at the mines and in the camps. If you think that when they get their 2 weeks off that they dont get out on the turps then you are dreamin ! A fair chunk of them would be out goin hard making up for the last few weeks on the mine ! Of course someone will make the mistake of being stupid and driving a car, and may get caught and convicted etc but should it affect their job (maybe just a desk job or something up at the remote spot) ??? Unless of course if their job involved driving and they lost their licence that could be an issue. Tthey were prob half a world away at home when it happened !

Just my 2 cents anyway

[HercFeend]

[IslandBoy77]

We often hear this phrase bandied about "What people do at home / in their own time / whilst not on the job - is their own business". And that is true, as far as that statement goes. Something many people appear to disconnect from that statement is this: everything we do at home, in our own time, or whilst not on the job has to have an effect outside of those times. If I play a contact sport on the weekend, wreck my knee / neck or whatever, and can't come to work on Monday because I can't move, then I have just had an impact on my employer. If I get on the turps on Friday night, get into a fist-fight and the other block breaks my jaw, or I break his and land in jail, that effects things possibly for weeks afterward - certainly days. And if I have a huge stand-up row with my "special other" that leaves me depressed / moody come Monday morning, how does that not affect me for at least all Monday, possibly the whole week (or month?).

So I'm not making any judgment over the gentleman whose actions (or inactions?) sparked this post - I wanted to speak of the thing that so many appear not to consider fully: our conduct 24/7 affects each and every part of our lives, private and professional, and we do well to remember that excesses of any sort - liqour, drugs, food - you name it, or poor / rash judgment calls - all have a flow-on affect to ALL those around us, ALL of the time. That should not make us fearful - just more considerate of others, and mindful of what we are doing - and why.

I still come back to an earlier question: WHY are people using excesses of drugs or alcohol? What is it in their lives that they are trying to escape / dull / whatever? And no, the "because they like it" does not cut it. Children don't need or even think of needing drugs or liquor to enjoy themselves - why should adults? Substance abuse (use?) is a learned habit that becomes addictive. And any addiction (other than to air, basic liquid / food / clothing / shelter) is a controlling force in our lives that shapes who we are and what we do - to a greater or lesser extent - and most non-essential addictions are unhealthy and hurtful to us and those around us. If a person claims that something is not addictive, then they should be able to easily / happily give such a thing up, because those things are just extras to life, not prerequisites - right? Right? I speak to myself as much as any - we all have our blindspots, foibles and flaws: it's the brave person that is prepared to challenge their own internal assumptions they make about themselves, no?

[towerguy]

I think some people must have missed this part in the middle of my post!

"what someone does on their "off" time - provided it's not illegal or hurting someone - is their business. So long as they are sensible sober and observe all guidelines ref times before duty etc then I don't have a problem. So long as they can do their job correctly."

[IslandBoy77]

No, I saw it / read it... I have expanded upon the idea...

[cowpatz]

Once again this is a case of the Herald (now a Tabloid newspaper) actually trying to create news. What a pilot or engineer does in their own time is his or her business, however if any action is going to subsequently have an effect on their working role then that is a different matter. What we are talking about here is a very small group of individuals. When you look at this against to the sheer volume of people working in safety related areas of aviation and then compare it against the general populace then it is minuscule.
I know Warrick West personally. He was the one the Herald put in the dock recently with the articles on multiple drink driving convictions. What that article didn't say was what the personal circumstances were and also what an outstanding pilot he is. He never drinks and flies or arrives still under the influence. He is a model 737 capt and well respected by his colleagues. This fit and proper person rule is the most draconian piece of legislation ever to grace the rule book. Absolute discretion by the Director and there is no definition of what a fit and proper person is. To many aviators have invested too much time and money and chosen a career that has no parallel (therefore reduced re-employment opportunities) to face this type of uncertainty.
As for the Herald they just want to sell newspapers and that means sensationalism and exaggeration. One only has to look at the drink drive paranoia that they are currently whipping up. Will lowering the drink drive limit lower the road toll. Actually it wont. Those killing on our roads are well over the current limit...and most repeat offenders. Overseas lowering the limit has not lowered the toll....it is the increased inforcement that went with it that achieved that result. Joyce is correct to take time to review the lowering of the limit. Many normal law abiding citizens risk being turned into smeared "bloody idiots" or criminals (after some wine with an evening out) if not. We need reasoned debate and not the stampeding herd mentality being created by the Herald.

[HercFeend]

I need a coffee!!

[cowpatz]

QUOTE (HercFeend @ Aug 14 2010, 10:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I need a coffee!!

Yeah sorry a bit of a rant. The Herald "making the news" really gets under my skin. Really poor tabloid journalism for the country's leading newspaper.
Black no sugar thanks

[Splitpin]

QUOTE (cowpatz @ Aug 10 2010, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah sorry a bit of a rant. The Herald "making the news" really gets under my skin. Really poor tabloid journalism for the country's leading newspaper.
Black no sugar thanks

Im with you CP....the hearld belongs on a roll out in the long drop, along with half these blood sucking TV media superstars.....
Im NATO (white with 2) cheers