RNZAF Super King Air replacement

[beaufighterguy]

QUOTE (deaneb @ Sep 13 2008, 04:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Buying new Hercs is way, way more expensive than an uprade - believe me. The idea (speculation) around the Dash 8 is that it would fulfil a similar role to the Andover and Friendships that we used to have. Since we lost these aircraft the training of Navigators and Air Electronics operators has been out sourced and training for those people is done overseas. We lost Med size transport and Para drop capabilities which are picked up by just 5 Hercs which are a bit big for the job. A Dash 8 in multi role config or with aircraft with different internal fits we could fufill all those roles and then some.
SAAB and Bandits don't even come close.



Really - thats what you think. And is having a strike force all about using them in anger only ?? There is a lot more to it than that.



The F16 is still the best option as it has a superb range of capabilities ideally suited to a small Air Force. Harriers are very expensive to operate and maintain, are dsigned for more specific purposes and offer no advantage to a small country like us. Bringing Air Macchis back would offer very good advanced pilot training and a small amount of ability to train with Navy and Army for air support practice, but that would be all.

With Harriers you'd need better training and anyway you'd be buying something from the same era as the skyhawks.

[Alex]

QUOTE (beaufighterguy @ Sep 13 2008, 12:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah that's what we were going to get,I think they were ex Aussie air-force one's but silly aunt Helen has to pull out.

Yea, like redkiwi said, they were ex-USAF aircraft that were pencilled for delivery to Pakistan, but weren't delivered due to a trade/military embargo. Ewing comments that we had already effectively paid the deposit...

QUOTE (redkiwi @ Sep 13 2008, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No we don't, the skyhawks were used once in anger/defence in their 30 year service life with the RNZAF.

If you ever get a chance, read Ross Ewing's 'Topped Gun', there are plenty of other uses for strike aircraft other than going out in anger (think: deterrent, fisheries protection etc etc).

Before anyone says that they were old and useless, the Kahu upgrade was a major overhaul; avionics-wise they exceeded all but the newest aircraft (i.e. new F16's) in their time.

I believe that there is definitely a place for them. Look at the Georgia/Russia scenario. The US had all but said they'd go to war on Georgia's behalf, Bush even dropped in to make a few stoic speeches. Look at the outcome. Hard to think of anyone we've got a relationship that close with (except Australia, but then we'd never live that down if we needed them to come over).

Alex

[Naki]

QUOTE

Before anyone says that they were old and useless, the Kahu upgrade was a major overhaul; avionics-wise they exceeded all but the newest aircraft (i.e. new F16's) in their time.[/quote]

Very true,I belive they got new wings,ECM hump came off etc etc now they'd only really be good for training (ta-4 models that is )

[Alex]

They were effectively coming close to the end of their operational lives, hence the plans to replace them with F16's.

Alex

[beaufighterguy]

QUOTE (Alex @ Sep 13 2008, 07:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They were effectively coming close to the end of their operational lives, hence the plans to replace them with F16's.

Alex

Ahaha it might not be to far away if National gets in .

[twinstarda42]

In case any of you don't pay any attention to the news all the main Political Parties(national/labour) have absolutely ruled out ever bringing back any form of a strike wing or fighter aircraft.

[Alex]

That sounds really certain, which is a bit suprising; National haven't published any defence policy yet. Do you have a source?

Alex

[Link148]

Well unless the government is going to buy Air Nelson's last two Q300's they are going to have to buy second hand dashes anyway. After Air Nelson's 23rd Q300 comes off the production line the Q300 will no longer be built. So as per normal if a Dash is on the Radar it will be secondhand.

[twinstarda42]

QUOTE (Alex @ Sep 13 2008, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That sounds really certain, which is a bit suprising; National haven't published any defence policy yet. Do you have a source?

Alex

This is earlier item on it later news items late 07/08 confirmed the policy not to bring back any form of strike wing.

Nats loop the loop on air combat wing
By TRACY WATKINS - The Dominion Post | Monday, 27 August 2007

National is preparing to rule out reinstating an air force combat wing, saying bigger priorities exist in government.

Leader John Key said yesterday it was "extremely unlikely" that National would want to restore the air force strike wing, and that would be made clear in a pending discussion paper.

"I'd be ruling out us bringing back a strike wing; I just don't see it as a priority," Mr Key said.

His long-awaited confirmation that National has buried its ambition to restore the strike wing follows comments by foreign affairs spokesman Murray McCully, endorsing the existing "niche" role of the New Zealand Defence Force.

It is a big U-turn from 2001 when the National Party roundly criticised the Government's decision to axe the air combat wing as gutting the Defence Force and a sign that New Zealand was shirking its regional responsibilities.

Speaking on TV One's Agenda programme, Mr McCully said National now acknowledged that the Government "had moved in the correct way so far with some of the niche expenditure ... and it is fair to say that we see the way forward is for New Zealand to focus on some capabilities that it can really execute well."

On some issues, particularly concerning approach, National disagreed with Labour.

Those differences would be spelt out in its discussion paper, which would also canvass greater involvement in the Pacific and a reprioritisation of aid toward the Pacific.

However, the paper would also spell out the National Party's commitment to an independent foreign policy - "and that's not something you've heard from the National Party in previous times".

One of his first tasks as leader was to distance himself from previous confusion over National's foreign policy and its position on the anti-nuclear free legislation, which he said National would not change

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4178929a11.html

[Alex]

Ok, I'm prepared to eat my words.

Alex

[greaneyr]

QUOTE (waka172rg @ Sep 13 2008, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd say that old aunty Helen won't worry about the air force for a bit because of the election due in November 8, 2008
unless she wants the votes and maybe temps people with good replacements for the king air's and some jets!!!

On this issue, she's already burned her bridges. If she sticks with status quo, she'll lose the votes of those who were opposed to the disbandment of the strike wing. If she says she'll change her mind, those same voters won't vote for her because they'll all of a sudden switch sides and decide that it's going to cost them more money as a taxpayer to re-instate the strike wing that, they so firmly believe she shouldn't have scrapped in the first place. People love to whine about the disbandment of the strike wing. If they see a solution, they probably wouldn't take it since that leaves them with nothing to whine about!

This problem seems especially widespread in aviation circles - makes me wonder if all some people wanted was a more impressive airshow.

I know Labour have said they won't change their stance on this, but I just wanted to make the point.

[waka172rg]

QUOTE (greaneyr @ Sep 13 2008, 11:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On this issue, she's already burned her bridges. If she sticks with status quo, she'll lose the votes of those who were opposed to the disbandment of the strike wing. If she says she'll change her mind, those same voters won't vote for her because they'll all of a sudden switch sides and decide that it's going to cost them more money as a taxpayer to re-instate the strike wing that, they so firmly believe she shouldn't have scrapped in the first place. People love to whine about the disbandment of the strike wing. If they see a solution, they probably wouldn't take it since that leaves them with nothing to whine about!

This problem seems especially widespread in aviation circles - makes me wonder if all some people wanted was a more impressive airshow.

I know Labour have said they won't change their stance on this, but I just wanted to make the point.

dead rite mate!! but in saying that they have heaps of $ floating around in the budget. its allways good to see high power to weight raitio a/c fanging our skys and as a tax payer had no problems paying to see the a/c in action
alto my ears did{skyhawks}

[jastheace]

QUOTE (deaneb @ Sep 18 2008, 05:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Buying new Hercs is way, way more expensive than an uprade - believe me. The idea (speculation) around the Dash 8 is that it would fulfil a similar role to the Andover and Friendships that we used to have. Since we lost these aircraft the training of Navigators and Air Electronics operators has been out sourced and training for those people is done overseas. We lost Med size transport and Para drop capabilities which are picked up by just 5 Hercs which are a bit big for the job. A Dash 8 in multi role config or with aircraft with different internal fits we could fufill all those roles and then some.
SAAB and Bandits don't even come close.

i was kidding about the Saabs and Bandits!!! i wonder if anyone has thought about maybe something like a C27 Spartan or something similar to those lines, small transport, could be and advanced multi engine trainer, VIP transport, Cargo air lifter and meat bomber all in one, not sure if it would even be a starter, but yes the dash 8 does seem like a goer, on a side not there are talks here in oz that they need to increase the strike wing due to the perceived threats and that oz could not protect it's borders and waterways as it stands if something sould go pear shaped. back on topic now

[squirrel350]

LOL I was told Aunty Helen made a right balls-up by saying "Don't Vote National They Wan't To Change The Country Radically" either it was a major case of "Foot In Mouth Syndrome" or a just a Senior Moment maybe she should keep off the juice a little more.

SQ350

[redkiwi]

QUOTE (deaneb @ Sep 13 2008, 04:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Buying new Hercs is way, way more expensive than an uprade - believe me. The idea (speculation) around the Dash 8 is that it would fulfil a similar role to the Andover and Friendships that we used to have. Since we lost these aircraft the training of Navigators and Air Electronics operators has been out sourced and training for those people is done overseas. We lost Med size transport and Para drop capabilities which are picked up by just 5 Hercs which are a bit big for the job. A Dash 8 in multi role config or with aircraft with different internal fits we could fufill all those roles and then some.
SAAB and Bandits don't even come close.

I wouldnt think the Dash-8 could be used for paradrop, I guess they'd have to do some kind of door chop like they've done to the 757? Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't they currently paying Great Barrier Air (or some other GA outfit) to fly the PTSU people up in a Norman Islander, and then just using a Herc for the more critical phases of aircraft specific jump routine?

QUOTE (deaneb @ Sep 13 2008, 04:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really - thats what you think. And is having a strike force all about using them in anger only ?? There is a lot more to it than that.

I know what having them there is about, however it seems that some people just want them 'because they're cool', I also understand that every year that passes that we don't have a fighter wing it becomes harder and harder to reinstate such a force should the decision be made. Unfortunately much of the local talent and knowledge that made the RNZAF fighter pilots (and the rest of the associated personel) world reknowned has gone off overseas, and one could only hope that A) they'd come back if the opportunity arose, and B) that they haven't retired. I can imagine that a lot of knowledge will have to be 'borrowed' from the RAAF/RAF etc in order to get things off the ground.

I would like to think that I could one day fly a fastjet in the RNZAF, and not as an exchange pilot, but I won't hold my breath.

P.S, dad says hi.

[twinstarda42]

QUOTE (redkiwi @ Sep 15 2008, 11:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

only hope that A) they'd come back if the opportunity arose, and B) that they haven't retired. I can imagine that a lot of knowledge will have to be 'borrowed' from the RAAF/RAF etc in order to get things off the ground.

Only 1 or 2 ex kiwi strike pilots remain with RAAF the majority have left(retired) and some are flying 747 Freighters from hong kong with cathey Pac, with at least 1 from the RAF gone airline also.

[Naki]

QUOTE (jastheace @ Sep 14 2008, 10:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i was kidding about the Saabs and Bandits!!! i wonder if anyone has thought about maybe something like a C27 Spartan or something similar to those lines, small transport, could be and advanced multi engine trainer, VIP transport, Cargo air lifter and meat bomber all in one, not sure if it would even be a starter, but yes the dash 8 does seem like a goer, on a side not there are talks here in oz that they need to increase the strike wing due to the perceived threats and that oz could not protect it's borders and waterways as it stands if something sould go pear shaped. back on topic now

I agree C-27s would be ideal - a cheaper alternative C-235 or C-295.

Interesting how they take defence seriously in Oz but here................

[deaneb]

QUOTE (redkiwi @ Sep 15 2008, 11:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

P.S, dad says hi.

Who is Dad ??

Deane

[h290master]

what defence in NZ lol? a couple sh2s?

[Njbb1995]

yea id say It'l hardly protect us against an invasion