NZFF

Although the RAAF F-111s are wee bit retired already.

Air force considers sending pilots to Australia for Fast Jet training

Kiwi pilots will probably go to Australia for fast-jet training as the Government rushes to fill a 10-year-old hole in the air force left by the scrapped Aermacchis.

Defence Minister Wayne Mapp confirmed this week that the 17 Aermacchi jets could not be returned to service.

He said yesterday that New Zealand had missed out on tens of million of dollars, and years of pilot training, as a result.

Full story Located here:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4...ia-for-training

So they do this "fast jet training" to do what exactly?
I think that ship has sailed.

Its a complete total balls up , if the Air force had done it right , the A4 s and Macchi s should simply stayed in service until a buyer was found , a well serviced plane is better than sitting in the dirt wrapped in a condom , that was a #### up , change of govt later we would still have an Air Force ... Dr Mapp ? or is it map and the idiot lost any direction !

Ian Warren wrote:

QUOTE (Ian Warren @ Jan 8 2011, 01:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its a complete total balls up , if the Air force had done it right , the A4 s and Macchi s should simply stayed in service until a buyer was found , a well serviced plane is better than sitting in the dirt wrapped in a condom , that was a #### up , change of govt later we would still have an Air Force ... Dr Mapp ? or is it map and the idiot lost any direction !

a couple of unfair comments in there Ian, as an ex serviceman involved with our strike force I can assure you none of us wanted to see them go, so it wasn't "the airforce" who did it wrong. Also if I had a dollar for every time I heard "do we still have an airforce?" I'd be a rich man. So may want to de-sensitise comments on the RNZAF as a few of us are still bitter about it.
cheers
Jamie

Why not go the whole hog and lease an entire airforce from somewhere? 

H500Fan wrote:

QUOTE (H500Fan @ Jan 8 2011, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

a couple of unfair comments in there Ian,

I was meant Government , that was 'Air force' .. everyone no s you shut machinery down it don,t work - best to keep all working till buyer found , unfair comments are my middle name since they closed Wigram down , as Air Force , you learned the history ( 75 should have stayed without any question due to sacrifice and Honor ) and you would have trained at Wigram ? , I no many there who now simply give ghost Salutes

steelsporran wrote:

QUOTE (steelsporran @ Jan 8 2011, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why not go the whole hog and lease an entire airforce from somewhere? 

Now that is a better idea .. I already thought off that

The Govt could always hire or lease Peter Jackson's fighter fleet would be fare more effective than what they have got now

Or just become another state of Oz, and have access to all they have......i think the time will come.

H500Fan wrote:

QUOTE (H500Fan @ Jan 8 2011, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

a couple of unfair comments in there Ian, as an ex serviceman involved with our strike force I can assure you none of us wanted to see them go, so it wasn't "the airforce" who did it wrong. Also if I had a dollar for every time I heard "do we still have an airforce?" I'd be a rich man. So may want to de-sensitise comments on the RNZAF as a few of us are still bitter about it.
cheers
Jamie

Jamie
As one of those(ex serviceman ), i agree..breaks my heart to walk around Wigram now..but i think Ian 's heart is in the right place.....but , the air force always went with the political tide...they had no choice. I think i was lucky to have served in the "golden years" when nothing was a problem...we were at full strength....but Im still very proud of all the people who chose to stay, and those that still want to join.......

I miss the point in sending RNZAF pilots to aussie for fast jet training when they're inevitably going to be flying Orions and Hercs? I have to agree, the ship has long since sailed for a fast jet fleet in New Zealand.

benwynn wrote:

QUOTE (benwynn @ Jan 8 2011, 10:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I miss the point in sending RNZAF pilots to aussie for fast jet training when they're inevitably going to be flying Orions and Hercs? I have to agree, the ship has long since sailed for a fast jet fleet in New Zealand.

Because they will be flying Orions and Hercs, low level, at up to 300 knots dodging hills, radar and bad guys. To do that competently you need to be a fast thinker and have honed skills. Thats why they had jet training as part of the wings course. As we used to say in the military - "Train hard, fight easy"

deaneb wrote:

QUOTE (deaneb @ Jan 8 2011, 11:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because they will be flying Orions and Hercs, low level, at up to 300 knots dodging hills, radar and bad guys. To do that competently you need to be a fast thinker and have honed skills. Thats why they had jet training as part of the wings course. As we used to say in the military - "Train hard, fight easy"

Good reply Deane....no matter what you fly, 300kts at 300 feet....you have to be at least 30 seconds ahead of it.....Ive been up front in a herc during a Bullseye exercise, and those guys work just as hard as any jet jock....if not harder.

I am on the fence with this one, agreed when herc flying is low its not exactly "low and slow" but if given the chance after a taste of flying strike I'm sure some pilots will cross the tasman and do it full time rather than return to doing SATS up and down NZ or looking for ghost ships in out so-called exclusive economic zone. So while it can't be a bad thing to hone their skills, I think it may have adverse effects.
And sorry to snap Ian, just hit a nerve. And yeah the golden years were great, another sore point is Shelley Bay, although before my time everyone before me said they loved it there - not to mention wigram, what a waste. At the time I'd heard it was Wigram or Woodbourne to close but because Blenheim's economy would suffer so badly they chose Wigram

H500Fan wrote:

QUOTE (H500Fan @ Jan 9 2011, 12:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am on the fence with this one, agreed when herc flying is low its not exactly "low and slow" but if given the chance after a taste of flying strike I'm sure some pilots will cross the tasman and do it full time rather than return to doing SATS up and down NZ or looking for ghost ships in out so-called exclusive economic zone. So while it can't be a bad thing to hone their skills, I think it may have adverse effects.
And sorry to snap Ian, just hit a nerve. And yeah the golden years were great, another sore point is Shelley Bay, although before my time everyone before me said they loved it there - not to mention wigram, what a waste. At the time I'd heard it was Wigram or Woodbourne to close but because Blenheim's economy would suffer so badly they chose Wigram

H, i can remember when SATS was a frieghter or a dak, by the time you got home, your leave pass was expired

Splitpin wrote:

QUOTE (Splitpin @ Jan 9 2011, 12:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

H, i can remember when SATS was a frieghter or a dak, by the time you got home, your leave pass was expired

I had the luxury of either the herc or 727, even did one trip in a kingair. You're showing your age Splitpin!

H500Fan wrote:

QUOTE (H500Fan @ Jan 9 2011, 12:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am on the fence with this one, agreed when herc flying is low its not exactly "low and slow" but if given the chance after a taste of flying strike I'm sure some pilots will cross the tasman and do it full time rather than return to doing SATS up and down NZ or looking for ghost ships in out so-called exclusive economic zone. So while it can't be a bad thing to hone their skills, I think it may have adverse effects.

But pilots are bonded and have to stay with the RNZAF for 8 (or is it 10) years after they are trained, so the risks are minimal. You have to remember they fast jet training was used for years and it worked well and is well proven.

And Shelley Bay, like Te Rapa had to be the most obvious waste of space and money for the Air Force, I can't see any value those locations offered.

deaneb wrote:

QUOTE (deaneb @ Jan 8 2011, 08:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because they will be flying Orions and Hercs, low level, at up to 300 knots dodging hills, radar and bad guys. To do that competently you need to be a fast thinker and have honed skills. Thats why they had jet training as part of the wings course. As we used to say in the military - "Train hard, fight easy"

Must be a completely different situation in New Zealand than in Australia. Would it not just make sense to do your standard wings course (in Australia, FTS 1 --> FTS 2) then move onto training for specific aircraft type? Even hornet pilots fly the PC-9 then the Hawk trainer for quite a while before moving onto anything fast. I understand you need to be a fast thinker, but fast jet pilots are completely different from the rest.

 

Splitpin wrote:

QUOTE (Splitpin @ Jan 9 2011, 12:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

H, i can remember when SATS was a frieghter or a dak, by the time you got home, your leave pass was expired  

 Yeah, it was a long day. Lunch stops at Ohakea or Woodbourne.

benwynn wrote:

QUOTE (benwynn @ Jan 9 2011, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Must be a completely different situation in New Zealand than in Australia. Would it not just make sense to do your standard wings course (in Australia, FTS 1 --> FTS 2) then move onto training for specific aircraft type? Even hornet pilots fly the PC-9 then the Hawk trainer for quite a while before moving onto anything fast. I understand you need to be a fast thinker, but fast jet pilots are completely different from the rest.

I don't thinks there is much difference at all - the likes of the PC-9 are the equivalent of what the RNZAF did with the Strikemaster/Macchi for advanced pilot training. The difference with the RNZAF was that the Strike/Macchi also covered the strike training for those pilots moving onto Skyhawks, so we were doing two jobs with one aircraft as it made better sense economically.

So flying a 300 knot (if that) aircraft looking for ships etc at low level, requires Mach 1.8 fast jet training? K.