NZFF

Hi guys,

Don't post on here all that much these days, been a tad busy for much sim stuff!

To all CPL holders (NZ) or those of us in training (especially us)!

Air New Zealand via Price Waterhouse Coopers has recently lodged an application to the MoBIE (Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment) for permission to add "Aeroplane Pilot" to the list of professions that are not able to be filled by New Zealand applicants alone. Now, as far as I see it, I have never heard a bigger load of BS in my life. Facts are facts - there are a HUGE number of qualified, kiwi pilots that are capable of filling these vacancies who are trying desperately to gain the hours necessary, or simply be given an opportunity to interview for a spot in our national airline. In addition to that, there are a significant number of us training to get to a point where we can be considered for such a prestigious position, and eventually into a left hand seat of an aircraft bearing the Koru and New Zealands flag.

This is a decision which could affect all of us. I know, personally, I would feel much safer in the hands of a passionate kiwi flying for his/her national airline, doing something that if they are anything like me, have dreamed of doing their whole life. I for one am not interested in being pushed to the bottom of the pile trying to get a job at my own national airline while a foreigner with the same qualifications who is happy to work for peanuts takes the position that, provided they worked hard enough, should have been filled by a deserving kiwi.


Attached is a PDF outlining the basis of what Air New Zealand is trying to implement here - make your own judgements, but if you could spare a few minutes of your time to write to the MoBIE or the email address stated, it would be much appreciated.

Feel free to disagree if you do so choose, but imho, this is just another example of our assets being gifted to foreign entities, and another middle management faux pas.

Thanks for your time,
Joe.

*EDIT* Not sure how to attach files (bright, I know:/). If you want the pdf PM me and I'll flick you it in an email. Thanks!

Would be bad news for Kiwi pilots, and I understand your concerns. It's a reality all over the world though. Don't think I can just get into KLM because I'm Dutch, if there's an English guy with more experience...
Without having access to the PDF, is it just a measure to hire cheaper pilots or will they still give preference to NZ pilots? I can imagine they would like to take this measure to attract senior pilots from other countries for positions where no suitable NZ candidates are available?

Disclaimer: To be honest, it would be interesting for me, as I would give quite a lot to be able to move over to NZ and fly for ANZ.

Intrance wrote:

QUOTE (Intrance @ Jul 24 2013,12:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Would be bad news for Kiwi pilots, and I understand your concerns. It's a reality all over the world though. Don't think I can just get into KLM because I'm Dutch, if there's an English guy with more experience...
Without having access to the PDF, is it just a measure to hire cheaper pilots or will they still give preference to NZ pilots? I can imagine they would like to take this measure to attract senior pilots from other countries for positions where no suitable NZ candidates are available?

Disclaimer: To be honest, it would be interesting for me, as I would give quite a lot to be able to move over to NZ and fly for ANZ.

Hi!

Yep, I do understand where you're coming from on this matter, but basically as I see it in the pdf (it's very much open to interpretation, quite vague), it's simply a move to hire cheaper, less experienced pilots on the basis that there are apparently not enough pilots in New Zealand capable of filling the roles. If this is indeed the case, ANZ must've done some impulse buying for another 200 triple 7's or something.......

It also means that for those of us in the Air NZ preferred pilot program, that potentially all the work we've put in to get ourselves in a position to be in this program could all come to nothing, and we'd be simply low hour CPL pilots fighting amongst anyone and everyone, from anywhere. Whilst it hasn't been confirmed for us that this program would be scrapped, the general consensus was that if the bill passes there'd be little chance of the benefits of this incentive carrying through. That bits simply speculation though.

Cheers

I wouldn't get your knickers in a twist just yet. If this is to happen then it is as a result of the need for pilots, not because ANZ have a conspiracy against budding kiwi pilots. The regionals are hiring like mad these days and this is a result of a continuous flow on to mainline and the various other low cost carriers here and overseas. Compared to even a decade ago flying opportunities today are significantly more. I was talking to a chap just last week who was about to start the ground course at Air Nelson on the Q300. He has just over 1000 hours, a couple of hundred multi in a Chieftain and they snapped him up. None of this do a ground course and we'll call you in 6 - 12 months for a start, maybe, he is straight in and on the rating today. Time to command, 2 years average.

There is no road paved in gold to a career in aviation however student pilots today have got a lot more going for them than in days gone by. Heck, Air NZ preferred pilot programme, doesn't that in itself suggest things are going to be 'ok'?

A quick google will reveal a lot of concern about the global pilot shortage to come. In saying that, if we need experienced pilots to fly our big jets and we can't fill those positions locally the next best option is not to lower the hours requirements, although that is happening anyway, but to look further afield. Its reality and doesn't mean kiwi pilots won't get jobs, quite the opposite. Its clearly a sign of the health of the industry and the increase in opportunities for those qualified to fill the seats.

This has been foreseen for years. In a brilliant move the govt more or less removed student loans for flight training. Whilst I agree that the loans should not be given out willy nilly they should still be available in sufficient quantity to ensure that the pilot future pilot requirements are catered for. These are future jobs for my/our kids going to ring ins. The problem is not just confined to the aviation industry. It all really started with the collapse of the apprenticeship system, which at the time was one of the best systems in the world.

Even if you are thinking about a career put in a submission. What if your teenager wants a crack at it? Will he/she have a chance? Remember aviation is cyclic and the wave will pass and then we will be stuck with a raft of imported pilots now entrenched in the top NZ flying jobs.

Actually, I'm on the other side of the coin as an immigrant but that doesn't mean I'm trying to defend ANZ's initiative. In fact, I really respect this country for keeping this sense of national unity while being open-minded about different cultures. That's something Hungary lost a hundred years ago.... Anyways, I don't have access to the numbers (eg. how many kiwi pilots are available with enough hours to fill in a role with an airline company), but I've seen this happening in the IT industry for some time now. Especially in certain "niche" technology areas. Strangely enough, in theory, the local education system should be able to support the increasing need for IT professionals, but still, many companies and agencies are struggling with resourcing and end up bringing people over from all around the world. There could be a whole lot of different reasons for ANZ to do that, but to be honest I don't think that "cheap workforce" would be one of them.

The same can be said for any industry, the fact is it not what you no but who you no and then the upper echelon and hiracky - example is myself .. three attempted applications to get work at the RNZAFs Wigram Museum , obviously i don't no enough about New Zealand Aviation history or the links and leads to other fields that are historic, of course what i could have contributed display, art, engineering and simply to finish it of even that little side of fight simulation and well not to mention a guide.

As you all well no my connections, i was shown and few parts to confirm what they are that was to ME common knowledge, a good example just recent i was with a NZFF member who come here to meet people like myself and visit the museum, whilst Adrian was photoing area's there a group trying to figure how this worked and all sorts of bit and pieces - what got me they asked a staff member as they were lost to explain the workings, on her return she was still at a lost - i stepped in and explained what they wanted to no and further described the actions .

On leaving them to carry on, they did asked , oh work here then - course told then NO , with that example , very good friends with the staff out the back its the people placed doing the political thing and protecting there own pockets and course .

What got my goat was how they told me only on one and last occasion was "Oh yes we are looking at applications and we will have contact you on this date , two days past I phone the head huncho's in the the late early afternoon and said they will be sending letter of interest in a few days ... next morning an express courier turn up with a letter saying i did not get selected .

I found out later and very much similar to the John Key I love you saga with his boy friend lover of his school days getting the spy job the same happened here .. the top dog at Wigram brought her friend in from the UK who wanted to move to NZ said this will get you in the door with immigration and such ..... strange to think here i am ten minutes down the road - the city was in a shambles after the earthquake a lack off work due to the destruction in the city. ... WHAT I ALSO FOUND OUT LATER WAS THERE WAS NO INTERVIEWING ... it was all in house secret squirrel .

It not what you no .. its who you no - be the same with Attn all NZCAA CPL holders or trainees

Yes I saw that happening at my last workplace too... Sorry to hear that happened to you as well. Seems like more and more workplaces miss out on talented and passionate people this way...

For those of you who haven't seen the PDF here it is

Attention all NZ CPL holders - this concerns you!
Review of Essential Skills in Demand Lists
The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment is carrying out a Preliminary Indicator Evidence Report (PIER). You would be excused for not knowing anything about this or what it means to you, with particular regard to your future employment opportunities.
Purpose:
The purpose of the Preliminary Indicator Evidence Report (PIER) is to collate relevant statistical data about each occupation selected to be part of the review of the Essential Skills in Demand (ESID) lists; and to provide a preliminary view on the status of the occupation based on that data.
PIERs are prepared by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (the Ministry). Each report is based on an assessment of the occupation against three key indicators:
• _skill level - does the occupation meet skill level requirements?
• _scale - is the occupation of sufficient scale, in terms of employment or work visa application numbers, to warrant a listing?
• _shortage - how strong is the evidence that there is a shortage?
A submission has been made by Price Waterhouse Coopers on behalf of Air New Zealand to add “Aeroplane Pilotâ€￾ as a group which has skill shortages and which cannot necessarily be filled by NZ pilots. If it is accepted that there is a deficit of skilled pilots within NZ, this will then give the Air New Zealand Group the option to hire foreign pilots from offshore.
The summary of evidence in the Price Waterhouse Coopers submission discloses the following;
The Australian and New Zealand Standard Classification of Occupations (ANZSCO) skill level classification and salary information are used as indicators of skill level.
In general terms, only occupations assessed by ANZSCO as levels 1 - 3 are considered “highlyâ€￾ skilled. In addition, a base salary of at least $45,000 is used as a proxy indicator for skill level.
ANZSCO skill level classification 1
Average annual base salary: $84,900 Salary range: $47,600 to $100,000
Qualification and experience requirements
A NZCAA Commercial Pilots Licence Multi Engine Instrument Rating A basic gas turbine endorsement
In accordance with Part 121.557 Air Operations - Large Aeroplanes 500 hours total flying time, including:
100 hours in Air Operations 25 hours of night flying
The Air NZ Group also has a requirement for UE or ATPL subjects. This not a new requirement, but has been in place since the 1970's when the NAC, operated domestically. In my view, it is a fair and reasonable way for the employer to ascertain that a pilot has the necessary academic ability to pass the required type ratings and training required of them.
Shortage
The ESID lists are designed to facilitate the entry of skilled workers to New Zealand to fill skill shortages, and to reduce costs and time delays for employers seeking staff. At the same time, it is important to ensure that those appropriately skilled New Zealanders who are available to work are not displaced.
The Price Waterhouse Coopers submission states:
“national data on people available to work or train suggests that there are 8 (eight) suitable job seekers available to fill vacancies within this occupationâ€￾.
This has been based on the Ministry of Social Development data as at 26 April 2013.
The bottom line
It is imperative for all you young CPL holders and those in training to become CPL's, to make a stand and protect your employment opportunities by making a submission to the Ministry of Business, Innovation & Employment.
I have attached some PDFs, which contain the submission form, and the email address to send it to.
For many of you who are not all that long out of school, this will be a new experience and a daunting introduction into an adult world where there comes a time to safeguard your future. In my opinion, doing nothing and remaining silent is not an option for you.
Submissions close at 5pm on 26 July 2013, so you have less than a week to get into gear.
The preferable option would be to flood the MoBIE with a large number of individual submissions.
GAA is, however, prepared to help those who don't feel sufficiently confident, to put in their own individual submission. We will put in a submission and attach your names as co-submitters.
If you wish us to do this, you need to email me at airfabrico@xtra.co.nz and request that your name be added as a co-submitter. It would be helpful if your email also contains your personal views and experiences in trying to get a flying job within NZ and if you have had to go offshore to find employment.
An indication of whether you currently meet the criteria and the Air NZ Group requirements, or if you are currently working to gain them, would also be helpful information. These comments will be attached as an Appendix to the submission.

Hi again guys,

Thanks for your inputs, much appreciated.

Here is a link, fairly similar to the pdf (cheers Doug) that should hopefully explain the predicament to those of you interested better than I could dream of;

http://www.caa.gen.nz/?p=3133

Cheers again,