NZFF

Hey Guys

What other cities in NZ deserve to have international flights?


Cheers
Daniel

None
I'm sure if it was profitable enough, there would be airline services to/from there.

I heard a while ago that Rotorua were lengthing the runway to handle larger aircraft with the intent of flying direct routes to Australia. Whatever happened to that plan?

Rotorua is I think the only city out of these that could get INTL flights.
It is also probably the only one that could support them.

Not that I'm against the others getting international service, but Rotorua is seen as one of the premier tourist destinations in New Zealand and this would justify international service to a point.

Of course, then comes the logistics issue of aircraft from places where these tourists come from not actually being able to get into ROT.

Trans-Tasman flights are a possiblity, and a much talked about one (if the newspaper here mentions the word airport, it always follows with a sentence about our possible INTL flights), but I'm not sure if there are any justifications for service to Oz from Rotorua.

Holiday-makers? Travel to AKL is fine, they're interested in price and everybody knows that service from ROT would have to be more expensive. (Yes service from ROT makes it more convenient, but I doubt there are enough numbers from here who are willing to pay more to justify it. Also consider that Rotorua is largely a low income city with people who can barely afford to go on holiday as it is, without the added cost of a fare from ROT).
Business people? Maybe, but the majority of companies who need their employees to fly to Oz are based in Auckland anyway. Chances are this is also an occasional thing, and therefore not enough for full time service.
Plane geeks? Maybe, but obviously not enough to justify full time service.

So while I would like Rotorua to get international flights , I find it hard to come up with reasons why it's viable.

The other cities all have similar things - I can't justify it for any other cities.
Tauranga has a middle income level, but they're beachside which rules out a number of holiday-makers from there. Plus it's not really a tourist hotspot also.
IVC lacks touristy stuff and is close to CHC anyway.
NSN attracts a few tourists I suppose, but not enough for INTL service I would think, and the same is true for departures from there.
NPE is the same.
So is NPL.

New Zealand is a small country with a low population.
Our income is statistically a lot lower than most others (we're one of the poorest in the OECD).
We draw a large number of tourists, but they're happy to fly into AKL/CHC. Not to mention that the airports in question can't possibly service a flight from overseas (let's see a 777 land at ROT ).
Australia, the biggest possible destination from these regional airports lacks tourist numbers to NZ to justify service, and flights from here to there could be popular, but probably not popular enough to justify service.
The Pacific is largely the same.

Also, think about PMR. Freedom tried it (and although NZ is getting rid of the Freedom brand, this is still true) Freedom is/has exit/ed/ing PMR as a service port - because they can't justify service.

Trolly wrote:

QUOTE (Trolly @ Mar 27 2008, 06:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I heard a while ago that Rotorua were lengthing the runway to handle larger aircraft with the intent of flying direct routes to Australia. Whatever happened to that plan?

Still going ahead as far as I know, but we have a useless council here, so it will probably be delayed.
If/when it's finished, it will probably be an utter failure and a waste of time and money.
Actually on second thoughts, the runway is longer now (but not by too much), so it might have been "finished" or not going ahead.

Cheers
Anthony

Hamilton was upgrading their runway to 2700m apparently so they can get 744's.

Problem. Not enough tourists(?) and if Auckland is fogged out, Hamilton usually is thus a waste of money in my view.
Rotorua could work as it it gets a large amount of tourists.

Kelburn wrote:

QUOTE (Kelburn @ Mar 27 2008, 06:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hamilton was upgrading their runway to 2700m apparently so they can get 744's.

Problem. Not enough tourists(?) and if Auckland is fogged out, Hamilton usually is thus a waste of money in my view.
Rotorua could work as it it gets a large amount of tourists.

A 744 to Hamilton. I'll believe it when I see it.
Not for scheduled services anyway.

As a diversion place? Maybe, but like you said, if AKL is fogged out or otherwise diverting, then HLZ probably is too.
For charters? Maybe, but it's a waste of money for four flights a year.

WRT to Rotorua, like I and you have both said, we get lots of tourists, but I would think many of them are actually here to see NZ, not Rotorua.
We just happen to be a most excellent stop on the way through New Zealand, and a popular one as well.
I'm not sure that visits to just Rotorua would be particularly popular or profitable.

Also I have something to add to my arguments:
A while ago (90s?) IVC had some stuff done to it, all subsidised by local govt in the hopes they would get INTL flights.
They never materialised and I doubt they ever would.

International services to our regional airports is like the regional jet thing I think.
Not gonna happen, or if it does, not gonna stay for long (if airlines want profit and prices stay fair).

Cheers
Anthony

Well I'm in two minds about the whole issue personally. On one hand, I'm not a huge fan of Palmy as an airport in it's own right when we've got a much more adequate airport just up the road at Ohakea. On the other hand, I've never quite understood why ANZ expect us to be able to drive 2 hours to get home from Wellington after a midnight intl arrival, when Hamiltonians aren't expected to travel a much shorter distance to/from the southern side of Auckland. They've got a motorway. We've still got a cr@p road that the govt refuses to do anything about. It just doesn't make sense. Wellington also has a curfew, which means after catching a late international flight back to NZ, you can't catch another flight back to Palmy until the next morning. Whether ANZ pull out of Hamilton or not is almost irrelevant in this case since it's probable that ANZ would put on a feeder flight from AA to HN after a later intl arrival if demand justified it. Out of Wellington, ANZ simply don't have the option.

The only thing that does justify it is if the trans-tasman flights out of Palmy were in fact not economically viable, and I don't think many people will ever know the real truth to that one. There has been talk that ANZ killed the PM service to try and boost passenger numbers through Wellington.

The only way intl services can thrive out of the provinces is for hub and spoke to go out the window. At the moment, there's too many reasons pointing to using AA, WN and CH for intl expansion since they already have the infrastructure in place. If a new carrier come in, they're always going to start at those three, domestic or intl, simply because those airports have the infrastructure, personnel and customers to justify it. If they could make something small, super fast and super economical that could get from NZ to Aust in a comparitively short time, we could scrap the need for hub and spoke and all fly out of our provincial airports since we'd have the runways and the service wouldn't cost the earth to run.

But then we're all experts on this subject aren't we? Just as well we all run our own airlines so profitably.

New Plymouth Definitely!!!

As long as they can extend the runway to at least 6000 feet.

NZNP is the closest airport to Australia.

Well, deserving or no, Whenuapai is the most likely

For a non-Aucklander, I'm surprisingly pro-Whenuapai. The population imbalance between Auckland and the rest of NZ is something I think a lot of people don't consider. There are a heck of a lot of people there being serviced by one airport. I know places like Sydney are bigger and don't have two intl airports, but then they also have a well established public transport system compared to Auckland.

I really think Napier needs to be considered. A huge wine country area, and with Gisborne (more vineyards) a few hours up the road, good climate, plenty of things to see and do, and an attractive city to boot (well two cities really when you count Hastings). Then again I guess you could find an equal number of attractions for most the airports on that list but it doesn't make them economically viable. Tourists have to WANT to start/end their holiday at somewhere other than AA, WN or CH for a reason. For me, when I am booking intl flights it's all about frequency and it's just not likely that any carrier can offer a high frequency of flights in a centre with a significanty lower population base than a major centre,

None really, but Id like to say that recently the amount of visits to Nelson by Bizjets has gone up considerably.

Greater Auckland north of the harbour bridge vies with Queenstown for highest growth area in NZ.
Traffic congestion makes NZAA most unattractive to those northerners wanting to fly anywhere.
There is definitely sufficient population to support a trans-Tasman hub at NZWP.
It can and does, support 757-size aircraft too.
The outcome will not be a reasoned one however, it will vest in pork-barrel politicking and lobbying by Darth Vader Infratil.

Just regarding the runway lengthening at Rotorua question thrown in by Trolly (I have the proposed airport plan in front of me if anyone wants some more info).

About 2-3 years ago (maybe a bit more, hopefully Daniel or Anthony will correct me ) they extended the southern end of the runway 250m, to allow 737 services if memory serves.

The Northern end had some work done on it (lengthened 130m), which finished in the early/middle last year (mostly providing a larger RESA zone and starter extension).

Paperwork is going through on a further extension of the southern end, something in the magnitude of roughly 350m of runway, with a 120m starter extension (+ larger RESA). Resource consents and the like, I think that construction is planned to start later this year, but these things often hit snags, so it's quite possible it could start later.

They will also have to strengthen the original 1370m runway as well.

Total length if all goes to plan, according to this plan, (incl. starter extensions) is 2007m, or roughly 6585ft.

Alex

I want Whenuapai to become a domestic airport (and possibly trans-tasman!)

Alex wrote:

QUOTE (Alex @ Mar 27 2008, 08:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just regarding the runway lengthening at Rotorua question thrown in by Trolly (I have the proposed airport plan in front of me if anyone wants some more info).

About 2-3 years ago (maybe a bit more, hopefully Daniel or Anthony will correct me ) they extended the southern end of the runway 250m, to allow 737 services if memory serves.

The Northern end had some work done on it (lengthened 130m), which finished in the early/middle last year (mostly providing a larger RESA zone and starter extension).

Paperwork is going through on a further extension of the southern end, something in the magnitude of roughly 350m of runway, with a 120m starter extension (+ larger RESA). Resource consents and the like, I think that construction is planned to start later this year, but these things often hit snags, so it's quite possible it could start later.

They will also have to strengthen the original 1370m runway as well.

Total length if all goes to plan, according to this plan, (incl. starter extensions) is 2007m, or roughly 6585ft.

Alex

I think that sounds about right however i think the total length is going to be slightly more than 2200 metres.
Rotorua in my opinion (its not just because i live here ) has the same tourist situation as Queenstown.
When tourists come to NZ they like to go to Auckland, Rotorua and Queenstown. I have many contacts at Rotorua Airport and i have been told everything including the runway will be finished and Rotorua should have its first international flight half way through next year. I have already seen all the international facilities and there is a complete new arrivals room with all the international requirements. I think Pacific Blue will be the first international airline to fly to Rotorua with their 737 800s flying to Brisbane or the Gold Coast.
Regarding Hamilton, do they really expect they will get 747s? Wellington would stand much more chance!

Cheers
Daniel

palmerston north deserve to have international flight ozjet was going to start flying on sunday and there are pulling out and freedom air stop on saturday and every one that work for freedom had job with ozjet and now there dont do i think palmerston north deserver international flight to australia

OzJet have reported on their website that "Planning for the new services was well advanced and there will be disappointment with this sudden change of plan which has been driven by events beyond the control of any one party."

Personally, I find this statement to be complete and utter bollocks. At the very least, they could have let people know about the merger talks and possible implcations when they first started to give PN Airport Ltd more time to try and secure another carrier. Having been through a merger in my own workplace in relatively recent times, I know first hand that mergers/takeovers don't move fast and there is usually a long period of uncertainty about what will happen. This would have been the time to at least let people know.

For godsake, they were training OzJet staff at Palmerston North airport just yesterday. That's just pathetic. There comes a time when you realise things are certain and you stop pretending they aren't going to happen.

greaneyr wrote:

QUOTE (greaneyr @ Apr 1 2008, 10:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OzJet have reported on their website that "Planning for the new services was well advanced and there will be disappointment with this sudden change of plan which has been driven by events beyond the control of any one party."

Personally, I find this statement to be complete and utter bollocks. At the very least, they could have let people know about the merger talks and possible implcations when they first started to give PN Airport Ltd more time to try and secure another carrier. Having been through a merger in my own workplace in relatively recent times, I know first hand that mergers/takeovers don't move fast and there is usually a long period of uncertainty about what will happen. This would have been the time to at least let people know.

For godsake, they were training OzJet staff at Palmerston North airport just yesterday. That's just pathetic. There comes a time when you realise things are certain and you stop pretending they aren't going to happen.

yes good point greaneyr what i wanna ask is why train ppl if there new the mergers/takover talk were happening ozjet sucks and more to the point our airlines sucks and i must say air nauru (our airline) was bankcrupt and could evern keep the plane there were using and a number of time casa( austraila) stop them flying so beacuse of bad mangement and safety reasons so i love to know how there are going to run ozjet with that in mind

Tauranga already extended their runway for just this scenario

they are the only really viable option on the list for a number of reasons

- it is the economic gateway to/from the bay of plenty
most of the imports exports etc flow through here and it would save a huge amount for many industries by not having to truck stuff up to AA for flights.

- a large retired population - many with the means and time to travel ( from earlier studies done in the region)

- fastest growing region in NZ

- is a central hub for tourism to the Coromandel/Bay of plenty/whakatane/Hamilto/Rotorua etc

- has consistently better weather

-economically better for Bus/Tour operators as its a much quicker trip TG-RO RO-AP etc therefore lower milage and fuel costs.

- Winston will throw his cookies and hit you over the head with an empty winebox if you vote otherwise.

All very compelling arguments really.

Well of course I support TGA but the runway/airport is in the middle of an urban area and cant really be extended too much plus there are noise probelms with residents in the area. NZTG is the closest airports to the CBD anywhere in NZ.

There were some studies done at great cost to build a new airport that serves Rotorua and Tauranga (and possibly Whakatane) with it built halfyway between the two centres but the cost was in the 100's of millions and no Councils around here has that sort of money.

You say it has better weather TG but its raining here now - and its probably dry every where else!