Are we in the next few days at war in Europe?

[hasegawa]

The illegal so called referendum in Barcelona for "Independence of Catalonia" is a big risk for us all in Europe and not only in Spain. The question is:
Can Spain in a civil war give the order for the the mutual defence clause by NATO?

What is the purpose of Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty?
Collective defence means that an attack against one Ally is considered as an attack against all Allies. The principle of collective defence is enshrined in Article 5 of the Washington Treaty. NATO invoked Article 5 for the first time in its history after the 9/11 terrorist attacks against the United States.

But in the past it was only against foes outside .... but in a civil war. I don´t know...

Yes the Regions in Spain have anj own parliament and a lot of rights.... but not against the spanish constitution:


Article 2
"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible country of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to autonomy of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed, and the solidarity amongst them all."

Article 155
1. If an Autonomous Community does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution or other laws, or acts in a way seriously prejudicing the general interests of Spain, the Government, after lodging a complaint with the President of the Autonomous Community and failing to receive satisfaction therefore, may, following approval granted by an absolute majority of the Senate, take the 47 Control of the bodies of the Autonomous Communities Government
Delegate in the Autonomous Communities measures necessary in order to compel the latter forcibly to meet said obligations, or in order to protect the above-mentioned general interests.
2. With a view to implementing the measures provided in the foregoing clause, the Government may issue instructions to all the authorities of the Autonomous Communities.

This is now the case...

[deeknow]

The illegal so called referendum in Barcelona for "Independence of Catalonia" is a big risk for us all in Europe and not only in Spain. The question is:
Can Spain in a civil war give the order for the the mutual defence clause by NATO?

So far Andreas the only attacking is coming from the central Spanish government, so the only "defending" that needs doing is on the Catalan side. Over 90% of the locals want to be independant. NATO should keep their nose out of it.

I've been following this particular issue for the last year or two and from all I've read and seen the Catalan position has been well prepared, and presented in a measured and reasonable way. The province is in a better position to be more independent and financially stable and I believe that is a key thing the other regions (and esp Madrid) have an issue with, as if they withdraw there is less to go around to support the other less well off provinces.

I'm no expert on recent Spanish history so feel free to fill us in from the European perspective.

[SUBS17]

No New Zealand more than likely with the UN sanctions and all lol....fake news...[airliner fuel]

[hasegawa]

The problem is older as Franco or our times. It dated back to 1704 and the so called "War of the Spanish Succession" in which the Catalans fought on the wrong side...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_th ... Succession

In the time of the fascist Dictator Franco the Catalans are under extreme pressure and lost all privilegues.

With the re-establishment of democracy in Spain the regions of Spain became a lot of autonomy back. Not alone the Catalans, every region of Spain. Spain is a state of federal structure. But... this is regulated in the spanish constitution from 1978. And the Catalans like all the other regions have signed it. They swore for it.

Now we have the separatists. They are since 2013 more and more in power. But the referendum was illegal and it was declared illegal by the Supreme Court of Spain.

This so called "referendum" was only held because of the mutiny of the catalan police, that does not his job to stop this. Guardia Civil and police from other Regions of Spain are not in the position to stop this and it was bloddy as we know.
But... hey, it was illegal, what the Catalans have done.

"Over 90% of the locals want to be independant." Nonsense. There was no control of how many times people have voted... 42 % of the catalans have voted in this illegal referendum. How much is 90 % of 42 % of the eglible voters?
And this traitor Carles Puigdemont and his local administration are not really in the position to declare "independence". In the end, Spain mobilized and the administration of Catalonia lost its status at the moment they declare independence because of article 155 of the Spanish Constitution.

Yesterday the other side have mobilized the so called "silent majority" in a demonstration against the Independence from Catalonia in Barcelona and all around of Spain.. A lot of company´s and credit institutes left Catalonia. The European Union tells this is a Problem of Spain and from NATO there are no statements at all. Meanwhile I know, the § 5 'NATO case of alliance' is only for an external thread...

The next few days are essential for the forthcoming of the things in Spain. But it is a national conflict. All european players avoid to do anything.

[hasegawa]

There is another point, we must see. In case of Catalonia´s "Independence", we have a new EU outer border. and Catalonia is no longer part of the EU. Meanwhile the biggest credit institutes of Catalonia Banco Sabadell and La Caixa left Catalonia. Why? This is simple. If Catalonia is no longer part of the EU they can do no longer businesses like a bank in the EU.

[deeknow]

Andreas, I'm sure you don't think any of the following actions are acceptable in a civilised society in the 21st century?..

* Spanish public prosecutor orders 700 provincial mayors to present themselves for questioning in relation to their participation in the movement, and that they be arrested if they do not present themselves (Sept 13)
* Raiding the Catalan regional government's office confiscating election material and arresting 14 people (Sept 20)
* Blocking access to websites run by groups associated with the independence movement
* Spanish high court orders Google take down a voting app for the referendum (Sept 29)
* Sending in riot police to beat innocent civilians on the day of the referendum and remove them forcibly from the voting stations
* Sealing off half of the voting stations
* Confronting peaceful protesters including local firemen with riot gear, batons and rubber bullets

This sounds more like Franco era fascism to me. There is no excuse for the excessive behaviour of the Spanish central govt during their response to the Catalan move.

Also, given the crackdown is it not logical to assume that a sizeable chunk of the population were too intimidated to even turn out to vote, one way or the other?

42% of Catalans (2.25 million) voted as far as we know, we are also told 750,000 others voted but the Guardia Civil stormed in and shut down the booths where those votes were cast and confiscated the ballots. We will never know exactly which way those votes were cast but it's reasonable to assume they targeted booths where the majority of residents favoured independence. Including these makes for a 3 million total and therefore a 56% turnout of eligible voters. Even Spanish general elections are lucky to garner more than 75% turnout.

I suggest we not take this conversation too much further, we have had other political topics go off the rails in the past. There's plenty of media coverage on the issue if anyone is interested.

[hasegawa]

After, what was yesterday in Barcelona, it is now the turn of the government in Madrid to bring article 155 of the Spanish Constitution into action...

https://www.boe.es/legislacion/document ... INGLES.pdf

It is no question, that the so called "referendum" was to 100 % illegal and against article 2 of the spanish constitution.

Article 2
"The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible country of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to autonomy of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed, and the solidarity amongst them all."


The irritations "Has Catalonia declared independence yesterday or not?" is now on the point, that article 155 of the Spanish Constitution may in Force in the next few hours.

Article 155
"1. If an Autonomous Community does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution or other laws, or acts in a way seriously prejudicing the general interests of Spain, the Government, after lodging a complaint with the President of the Autonomous Community and failing to receive satisfaction therefore, may, following approval granted by an absolute majority of the Senate, take the 47 Control of the bodies of the Autonomous Communities Government
Delegate in the Autonomous Communities measures necessary in order to compel the latter forcibly to meet said obligations, or in order to protect the above-mentioned general interests.

2. With a view to implementing the measures provided in the foregoing clause, the Government may issue instructions to all the authorities of the Autonomous Communities."

Spanish Constitution 1978, signet also by the Catalans and with the approval of over 90 % of them...

Let´s see, what is going on in the next few weeks. Meanwhile the headquaters of La Caixa, and Banco Sabadell left Catalonia, and many others to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Span ... nal_crisis