Editing discussion

[Alex]

Seeing as I can now say what I think without it having any sort of 'official' status (not that it really ever did, but people were bound to think that...).

I think that screenshot competitions should be about screenshots (note the key word there; screenshot). Not screenshots with real world bits pasted in over the top, not real world photos with screenshot bits pasted over the top. Screenshot competition entries should in my opinion should be screenshots, full stop.

Rule number one states that the image should come from an FS program, I take that rule to be the most important; given that it is rule number one...

Editing I take to mean messing around with the lighting, contrast, exposure (lighting again), brightness etc. This way you are simply modifying existing content (i.e. editing). Copying in a real-world photo doesn't count as editing to me, you aren't changing what is there, you are bringing in new data to the picture.

Having parts of a real world photo in an FS screenshot competition doesn't seem right to me. It's fine if you want to show off your skills, but in a competition when there is a physical prize up for grabs, I don't think that it's fair.

Mind you, thats just my thoughts... Perhaps we can get some sort of conclusive answer as to whether adding real-world content into screenshots is acceptable, given the rather confusing precedents (it was not allowed, and then allowed).

Alex

[NZ255]

QUOTE (Alex @ Feb 4 2008, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seeing as I can now say what I think without it having any sort of 'official' status (not that it really ever did, but people were bound to think that...).

I think that screenshot competitions should be about screenshots (note the key word there; screenshot). Not screenshots with real world bits pasted in over the top, not real world photos with screenshot bits pasted over the top. Screenshot competition entries should in my opinion should be screenshots, full stop.

Rule number one states that the image should come from an FS program, I take that rule to be the most important; given that it is rule number one...

Editing I take to mean messing around with the lighting, contrast, exposure (lighting again), brightness etc. This way you are simply modifying existing content (i.e. editing). Copying in a real-world photo doesn't count as editing to me, you aren't changing what is there, you are bringing in new data to the picture.

Having parts of a real world photo in an FS screenshot competition doesn't seem right to me. It's fine if you want to show off your skills, but in a competition when there is a physical prize up for grabs, I don't think that it's fair.

Mind you, thats just my thoughts... Perhaps we can get some sort of conclusive answer as to whether adding real-world content into screenshots is acceptable, given the rather confusing precedents (it was not allowed, and then allowed).

Alex

Yeah, I agree, i'll change it.
I was probably going to change it anyway.


Nick

[toprob]

QUOTE (Alex @ Feb 4 2008, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seeing as I can now say what I think without it having any sort of 'official' status (not that it really ever did, but people were bound to think that...).

I think that screenshot competitions should be about screenshots (note the key word there; screenshot). Not screenshots with real world bits pasted in over the top, not real world photos with screenshot bits pasted over the top. Screenshot competition entries should in my opinion should be screenshots, full stop.

Rule number one states that the image should come from an FS program, I take that rule to be the most important; given that it is rule number one...

Editing I take to mean messing around with the lighting, contrast, exposure (lighting again), brightness etc. This way you are simply modifying existing content (i.e. editing). Copying in a real-world photo doesn't count as editing to me, you aren't changing what is there, you are bringing in new data to the picture.

Having parts of a real world photo in an FS screenshot competition doesn't seem right to me. It's fine if you want to show off your skills, but in a competition when there is a physical prize up for grabs, I don't think that it's fair.

Mind you, thats just my thoughts... Perhaps we can get some sort of conclusive answer as to whether adding real-world content into screenshots is acceptable, given the rather confusing precedents (it was not allowed, and then allowed).

Alex

Some very good points. However since this is generally considered a valid form of editing in this sort of competition, I'm inclined to leave things as they are.

Personally I'm not a big fan of this type of edit, either. For me, the challenge is to take advantage of the strengths of the simulator itself to 'shoot' the picture. Someone who has spent the time 'setting up' their sim to give the best image, and relies on the strengths of that image, is more likely to impress me.

Because I'm not the only one who thinks like this, it becomes less likely that a screenshot which is mainly a real image will ever win the competition. If it does, it would have to be very very good, and that's what we are looking for.

There seems to be a belief that editing makes screenshots better (and the suggestion that this makes it difficult for unedited shots to compete), but like any form of digital editing this isn't always the case. Editing has a place, but it shouldn't be seen as a way to turn a mediocre screenshot into a great one -- this only works if you are an artist:)

[Charl]

Have to go with Alex here, 2c worth:
If you allow importation of material from outside, you could get this
It is a RW helicopter BTW

[Brennanx]

I dont enter anymore because of all the editing. I used to enter when there wasn't any editing but now i dont even try. I think there should be an editing competition and a normal screen shot comp.

[toprob]

Ok, I've moved this discussion for these reasons:
It is quite an important issue, obviously, and we may as well deal with it now;
Since it can't affect the outcome of this month's competition, it doesn't belong in that thread.

Up until now we have had very few rules for the screenshot competition. This is on purpose -- rules can be seen as restrictions, and we wanted as few of these as possible. However this is one issue which is continually raised, so maybe we need to come up with a ruling.
So this thread is designed to open up discussion on how the members feel about editing, with the possibility of either clarifying or changing the rules once it becomes clear what is considered fair.

Some likely directions might be:

Leaving things as they are:
Not allowing any editing;
Defining what constitutes acceptable editing.
EDIT:) ...or just making it a requirement to declare any editing.

Or any other direction which may be suggested. So make your suggestions!

If a number of options become clear, we may have a binding poll. Again, any thoughts for and against -- post them here!

[K5054NZ]

I think there are now, and perhaps has been for some time, two distinct forms of screenshot: a) The pure FS screenie with perhaps a little sharpening, or heat-haze, or brightness editing, and 2) FS Art, where a FS aircraft is transposed into a real-world or otherwise non-FS setting. A great, and may I say magnificent, example of this is Montie's Allison Mustang pics in this sub-board. Another, although simpler (no offence Nick) is the Fletcher shot which finally blew all this into our collective mind.

The hard thing is the middle-ground I've seen develop over, I think, the past six months - real sky, grass etc inserted into otherwise true FS screenies. I'm tending to believe, despite my personal dislike of the concept, that this form of editing should come under pure screenies, rather than taking up a life (and bandwidth ) of its own.

Personally, I haven't the skills to transpose an FS aircraft into a real-world image, otherwise I'd be entering such pics every month. It's up to people what they do with their own data, but I agree there should be discussion on this hot topic.

My opinion is: screenies are screenies, and FS planes in real-world (or other non-FS) settings are something different.

[creator2003]

It also depends really on what you want your forum to look like for a full month ? , i think whatever is put out on the table for the screenshot comp is a choise we as a group get to make by voting ..

If i build custom scenery that no one else can use because i didn't release it to the public, and i used photoreal images on the buildings and vehicles ,this could be classed as unfair or photo editing

just because i mite known more skills than another doesnt make my shot any less of a entry ,nether is it cheating ,
if you know how ,edited the hell out of it ... if you dont learn how too
ive edited grass in before but over time entering this comp and reading others thoughts i find myself just doing simple things to my shots now , id also like the choise to edit it in a way that best shows off what im trying to achieve.

The comp has worked fine for nearly two years now and i dont see any problems with the way its done , actually i cant think of any fairer way of doing it ..
there really is no point dulling the creative flare ppls have around here .
at the end of the day if you dont like it you have normally 15 others to vote 4

[Brennanx]

I think if you can edit the colour and stuff you can edit real world pictures into it I remember a while ago there was a picture of a guy hanging from a wing.

[toprob]

QUOTE (creator2003 @ Feb 5 2008, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It also depends really on what you want your forum to look like for a full month ? , i think whatever is put out on the table for the screenshot comp is a choise we as a group get to make by voting ..

I was thinking the same thing, we get to vote on the type of shot we like/accept each and every month. I suspect the issue here is a bit different -- whether or not we can compete with those with a real artistic flair. It really makes no sense to me that someone might say that they don't have the skills to edit -- there are a lot of ways around this, from actually learning some skills (we all had to start somewhere) to coming up with striking unedited screenshots. And believe me, the vast majority of winning shots are unedited, except for normal brightness/contrast. Even if you look at edited shots, most are either two or more screenshots combined, or a bit of 'atmosphere' or engine blur added.
Montie's 'Downed Pilot' shot is a work of art, and I'd be proud to have it on the banner for a month. I'd be proud to have it on my wall as well. However I would not vote for it, because it doesn't meet my own ideas of what constitutes a screenshot. However this is my own opinion, and I would be happy to be outvoted in the competition. Of course I also believe that if he entered an equivalent quality in-theme shot into this month's competition, he wouldn't automatically win:) He might, he might not, due to the nature of competition.
There are a lot of things to consider when choosing who to vote for in the competition -- probably more things than there are people who vote. For me, there's an initial gut reaction -- wow! -- when I first see the shot. Sometimes there might be half a dozen of these in a month, and if one doesn't get at least a double-wow, then I have to look a bit closer. Do they fit the theme? How would they work as a banner? How would they stand up representing the forum for a month?
I don't think that the cleverest, most talented, most artistic person wins each month, I think that the 'best' screenshot wins.

[ZK-Brock]

It seems fairly simple to me - allow editing, but do not allow real-world pictures to be placed/blended in to the screenshot. Seems like a lot of fuss over a small issue.

[toprob]

QUOTE (ZK-Brock @ Feb 5 2008, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It seems fairly simple to me - allow editing, but do not allow real-world pictures to be placed/blended in to the screenshot. Seems like a lot of fuss over a small issue.

...which would discount one of my all-time favourites...

[Brennanx]

thats the picture i was talking about with the guy hanging from the wing.

And yes there have been more pictures won with out editing than editing because back then not many people edited their photos maybe only 1 per competition and it made the voting a bit harder, but now i think there will probably be like 2 really good edited pictures that people will vote for.

[FunkymonkeyNZ]

QUOTE (creator2003 @ Feb 5 2008, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It also depends really on what you want your forum to look like for a full month ? , i think whatever is put out on the table for the screenshot comp is a choise we as a group get to make by voting ..

If i build custom scenery that no one else can use because i didn't release it to the public, and i used photoreal images on the buildings and vehicles ,this could be classed as unfair or photo editing

just because i mite known more skills than another doesnt make my shot any less of a entry ,nether is it cheating ,
if you know how ,edited the hell out of it ... if you dont learn how too
ive edited grass in before but over time entering this comp and reading others thoughts i find myself just doing simple things to my shots now , id also like the choise to edit it in a way that best shows off what im trying to achieve.

The comp has worked fine for nearly two years now and i dont see any problems with the way its done , actually i cant think of any fairer way of doing it ..
there really is no point dulling the creative flare ppls have around here .
at the end of the day if you dont like it you have normally 15 others to vote 4

Dude come on? look at your entry...it just kicks ass, who else in this forum has the editing skills close to you? So man dont back into a corner and try and defend it! its HARDOUT edited with photoshop or some editing program and i can take some pretty sweet shots but i could never reach that standard of perfection. So im not having a digg at you creator2003 but im just saying that this comp has to be fair, ok thats my 10c worth.

FunkyMonkeyNZ

[creator2003]

Yeah all good dude no problem there ,this month shot was actually only two of the same image with a bit of opacity taken of one image and offset to the other ,to give a feel of speed ,thats all i think i did to it ..
yes it was done in photoshop , and is from a stock sp2 fsx install over some robin corn scenery..
last months shot was just colored lighting and a little smudge in fs2004 yes in photoshop again

ive said this a couple of times on NZFF its a matter of spending time learning where its needed ,ie you learn to build scenery because you want to make something ,you learn to edit to win comps ,
There are plenty of others around here that can make and do stuff better than i can , ive learnt bits and pieces from all of them to do what i do now , and there are alot of trade secrets just laying around here to learn off
theres learning time in everything you do , i dont see this is any different
i enter the comp for the fun of it , the prize is a bonus that i usually give away . its more the whole lets have a comp and see what we all can come up with .

[Kelburn]

QUOTE (Brennanx @ Feb 5 2008, 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I dont enter anymore because of all the editing. I used to enter when there wasn't any editing but now i dont even try. I think there should be an editing competition and a normal screen shot comp.

He's right we should try and do that as it's not much fun any more with all this editing.
All I really do is sharpen but lets have the same prize (if the prize giver allows for two) and a non-editing and an editing contest. That way everyone can be happy.

[Charl]

Good to have this discussion every now and then.
I reckon it's a great idea to have a monthly update to the NZFF banner.
What's it say?
Well, it announces that this is a flightsim forum, and a NZ one at that.
More, it is fed by a screenshot competition, which is a great way to stimulate the art of the screenshot on the forum.
Rule 1:
1) The screenshot must be from a Flight Simulator program (FS2004, FSX, X-Plane, etc), and the position of the shot must be somewhere over New Zealand territory.
Nice and simple: a screenshot is something you take when flightsim is on your screen, running in NZ, end of story.
You can and should improve the lighting, cropping, tint, whatever, to make it look good.
The moment you import material that was not in the screenshot, it's no longer a screenshot.
It also removes the implied originality of the submission when you import stuff into it.

"Wingman" Warren got away with that banner because of the sheer brilliance of it, and he's the only one who has had that privilege.

Perhaps by way of variation, once in a blue moon one could open the banner entries to "Anything Goes which Promotes NZ Flightsimming", which would remove the restriction of a screenshot contest, and allow a "Wingman" entry.
But it shouldn't be the rule, because the banner should generally say, loudly,
"Hey look what you can do over NZ in a flightsim! and one of our Members has done this!"

QUOTE (Kelburn @ Feb 5 2008, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He's right we should try and do that as it's not much fun any more with all this editing.
All I really do is sharpen but lets have the same prize (if the prize giver allows for two) and a non-editing and an editing contest. That way everyone can be happy.

I think you guys should spend a little time honing your skills if you're interested in scooping the monthly prize.
The whole point of it is actually to improve the standard of screenshots here.
Getting a good screenshot is generally hard work, much like photography.
Sometimes you get lucky with a point 'n shoot, but ask a pro photographer what his discard rate is - 99% is probably close to the mark.
Those guys that make it look easy have spent hours and hours getting it right.

And while I"m on my soapbox, 2 suggestions for the monthly comp:
1. Winners of the past 3 competitions are ineligible
2. The winner must be announced at a declared date and time, so everyone knows by when their vote must be cast.

[Charl]

QUOTE

And while I"m on my soapbox, 2 suggestions for the monthly comp:
1. Winners of the past 3 competitions are ineligible
2. The winner must be announced at a declared date and time, so everyone knows by when their vote must be cast.[/quote]

Actually, that is a much, much better idea.

[Brennanx]

on other flight sim forum they have competitions for non edited pictures and edited pictures and it makes it a bit more fair. I never vote for edited pictures I vote for the best non edited one thats how i rebel against edited pictures

[Charl]

QUOTE (Brennanx @ Feb 5 2008, 05:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

on other flight sim forum they have competitions for non edited pictures and edited pictures and it makes it a bit more fair. I never vote for edited pictures I vote for the best non edited one thats how i rebel against edited pictures

It's essentially unenforcable and leads to stupid bickering...