Is It True

[ZK-KAG]

Wow... A185F you clearly have absolutley no idea what we do here then... Seems like a bit of an industry wide thing then, people bash something they know nothing about.

Let it be known that Im not only here for the degree, Massey isnt as bad as it seems. Its the few who let the reputation down.

[VH-CC1]

Fixed Or Rotary.


ROTARY @ North Shore Heli's.

[pois0n]

QUOTE (VH-CC1 @ Nov 13 2007, 01:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fixed Or Rotary.


ROTARY @ North Shore Heli's.

Do it at NAC or Garden City Heli!

[VH-CC1]

North Shore or Heli-flight.

[pois0n]

Auckland

[VH-CC1]

yeah, LOL. So...?

[VH-CC1]

Will Go Rotary over there and fixed here ( as my aero club's CFI knows i know what i'm doing )

[A185F]

QUOTE (ZK-KAG @ Nov 13 2007, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow... A185F you clearly have absolutley no idea what we do here then... Seems like a bit of an industry wide thing then, people bash something they know nothing about.

Let it be known that Im not only here for the degree, Massey isnt as bad as it seems. Its the few who let the reputation down.

KAG,- you obviously have not understood my post. I am saying that a degree is NOT required, nor is paying the ridiculous course fees wanted by massey.

Since you believe that I "clearly have absolutely no idea what we do here" then perhaps you may enlighten me. You are quite right, my first hand knowledge of massey is limited. All I know is what people who have been there have told me. Two very good friends infact who have done the Batch aviation and a past instructor (didn't train there). Nothing was positive.


I'll tell you what I do know a thing or 2 about,- flight training in nz. I have had something to do with most of the flight training organizations in nz, be it small courses to aircraft hire to type ratings to licenses and so on all at various different outfits around the show. I have a fair idea how they all work and their differences in operation. I'll tell you what I've learnt,- The sausage factories are about one thing and one thing only- MONEY. They couldn't give a rats behind about their students ,- they put them through at the minimum level to make the grade, nothing more.

Now I'm not totally bagging massey in particular, more the sausage factories as a whole. However you are right in saying that they have a reputation and I don't mind being totally Frances and saying that it's not a good one,- in fact it's disgusting but I won't go into in on a flight sim forum. People have bashed massey for ages and yes sometimes is is only a few that let reputations down but I have never heard any thing positive from there whether it be from past students to past instructors and even present flight examiners. Perhaps one day when you get out into the bigger wider world of aviation in nz, you may, just may have a different view on the place.


Now by crickey dont dare take anything as personal, I'm in no way bagging you, just the disgusting practices that some of these places have- not massey in particular. All I'm saying in my posts in this thread is that there is an alternative.

Peace out

[ZK-KAG]

Thanks A185F I didnt take it personally, and I hear ya with regards to sausage factories.

I certainly think that Massey has in the past pumped through the students for money, but I believe this is changing. You'll only hear it here, but the School of Aviation is looking at becoming its own entity within the University, which means more money availiable and not a desperate drive to push through the students. I have had the best instrcution and utmost care from instructors here for my flying (However, the instructors only put in effort to a student if it will be returned with regards to flying on schedule etc). The instructors that I have had @ Maseey have been quite contrary to what is percieved, granted not all are like this.

Now I have limited knowledge of the outside Massey environment, but I know how it compares to other places having flown with Ardmore Flying School, Airline Flying Club, Walsh Flying School and Eagle Flight Training. AFS in my opinion is the biggest sausage factory by far and out does Massey by a country mile (please dont take this personally AFS Students). I wont go into the basis behind that statement. Massey is striving to shake the negative image and hence why it is drifting into the quiet corner of NZ aviation, going about its business trying to stay out of the mudslinging.

Massey is actually reasonable with regards to fees. The cherokees run at $185 an hour, with around $450 for the Seneca V's. The reason it seems more expensive is that you're getting a degree on top of that. So make it $100000 all up and Id say its not a bad package.

I think the biggest issue (correct me if Im wrong) is the standard of Airmanship amongst the students at sausage factories. I cant argue with the fact that Airmanship is poor amongst these places and you cant beat experience lessons from 'old guys'. And that is the problem with these places is that students have a very narrow view of how GA works, and lack experiece in a different environment.

I dunno, I looked for 2 years into the best way to do flying and Massey came out on top everytime I compared it to other places.

Peace always
~ZK-KAG~

[pois0n]

Why is it that nobody will justify the reasons behind their statements about [training provider] ?

[ZK-KAG]

QUOTE (pois0n @ Nov 13 2007, 11:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why is it that nobody will justify the reasons behind their statements about [training provider] ?

Because I done want to make statements which may or may not be true and upset people beacause of what Ive heard or seen.

[A185F]

KAG

QUOTE

I certainly think that Massey has in the past pumped through the students for money, but I believe this is changing.[/quote]

To be fair on my part, All i've heard about is the past, so if things are changing - which I have no doubt that they are (due big changes in the industry) then that is fantastic, and what we need.

QUOTE

Massey is actually reasonable with regards to fees. The cherokees run at $185 an hour, with around $450 for the Seneca V's. The reason it seems more expensive is that you're getting a degree on top of that. So make it $100000 all up and Id say its not a bad package.[/quote]

If I could put my beef with massey down to one thing it would be the fees. A mate of mine who went through 5 years ago came out with a debt well into the hundred thousands (can't remember exactly) but it nearly put me into cardiac arrest. Hopefully things have calmed down in that department though. As I said before, all i'm saying on this thread is that one does not need to spend that kind of money to become a sole pilot. Sure there are HEAPS of people out there who want a degree for the sake of it as well but there are alot of people who get sucked into their (the sausage factories in general) marketing "get this, this and this and you can become an airline pilot,- we provide it all" - type thing. What a load of rubbish. It is those who are least informed of the actual facts who are sucked into paying shed loads to their huge, massive profit organizations.
Surely you can understand my frustration here...? By the way, those aircraft rates are the current average across the country,- by no means expensive.

QUOTE

I think the biggest issue (correct me if Im wrong) is the standard of Airmanship amongst the students at sausage factories. I cant argue with the fact that Airmanship is poor amongst these places and you cant beat experience lessons from 'old guys'. And that is the problem with these places is that students have a very narrow view of how GA works, and lack experience in a different environment.[/quote]

Fair comment. It is my belief that in terms of the students that these places produce,- there is a serious lack of practical experience/knowledge and various ways of doing things that is not being taught. I don't believe this is the fault of the students or the instructors but infact the "management" or those who decide what is being taught. They are on time constraints and I think that what is being taught is the absolute bare minimum to get them through- and this is understandable (due time). Quite right with the narrow view of how ga works. They are taught one way of doing things and apparently it is "THE WAY" and the only way. Boy can I think of countless times where this has become a big problem when these students go into the big wide world and work for someone else. They can't be taught anything because they are so implanted with the idea that they know best and that their way of doing things is the "right" way. There is no such thing as a right way. It is amazing how many different ideas of how to fly an aeroplane there are out there, and none of them are wrong.
I recently did a type rating for an instructor (relatively new C-Cat) from the IAANZ (don't ge me started on them, I could go all night) and being basically a clone of those before him and cloning the next,- I can tell you there was no lack of arimanship in the slightest- exceptional if I may say so,- however he was not open to new Ideas to what he has been instilled with already he thought he knew how to operate the aircraft before he got anywhere near it. (soon sorted that out). It turned out to be quite a difficult rating because he was down right hard to teach.

In saying all that, not all the sausage factories are the same. I (and many others) think very highly of the NAC for e.g and if i had to go down that road I would definitely go there in a heart beat.

I would be interested to hear what happens for you once you have finished your course ? Do they put you to work or what ?

Cheers

A185F

Sim-holic

 

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:25 pm

Posts: 613

Location: right behind my laptop

Top

[ZK-KAG]

Yeah in the past Massey had an internship with Garuda, but for obvious reasons this was cancelled. Management are working on a new one somewhat closer to home, but as it stands after the course we are left to our own devices. This is where many graduates struggle due to to lack of the "who you know" Ive got one or two things lined up which may or may not pan out, time will tell.

QUOTE

"THE WAY"[/quote]

So true, and I do agree that this is more accurate than saying airmanship is the problem...

Anyway this has been a productive thread so far

[HardCorePawn]

Aside from the degree... what exactly will you walk away from Massey with?

I got a BTech degree and walked away with a fairly large studly loan (around $50k)... but I had to live away from home, had no access to allowances due to my parents being 'rich', had no financial assistance from parents as they had a mortgage and other children to look after as well etc etc...

I wanted to do the aviation degree... but back in the mid-90's... the loans only covered the base course fees (around $3k/year) and did not cover the flying...

So if you walk away with a CPL and a couple of hundred flying hours and a degree for around $100k, you're probably doing OK... I have seen people on pprune quoting the current costs for a CPL from Ab Initio to be around AU$80k... so if you get some edu-ma-kation to go with it, it does not seem to ridiculous...

Having said that... is that $100k just for the flying/fees and not including living costs? Coz thats what the bulk of my loan ended up going on... paying rent and eating 2 minute noodles!

[A185F]

QUOTE

Yeah in the past Massey had an internship with Garuda[/quote]
ahh yes the thing with Garuda if you actually put aside the fact that they are Garuda, this would have been an awesome scheme to get on, people would pay anything to learn to fly and then straight onto a jet. I know of a couple guys who did that in the early 90s, and sure they had to put up with garuda for a couple of years but then they went straight into Cathay. It's a fast tracked airline career. I would still drop what I'm doing to go work for em (but not for long obviously, I value my life )

All over the world there are these big training organisations where you pay big bucks but go straight into a 737 and by crickey I don't think there would be too many people out there in NZ who wouldn't go this way in learning to fly (I know I would). Unfortunately there are none of these schemes in nz, YET. Mark my words, there will be, but prob not in time for any on this forum to take advantage of it

QUOTE

Ive got one or two things lined up which may or may not pan out, time will tell.[/quote]

The reason I asked is I know theat massey used to offer a type of internship thing where they would take you on as an instructor but not pay you untill you were a B-cat or something (a very nastey practice still being done by a few places in nz that I know of) I cant remember the all the details. Do they still do something like this ? and how does it work ? I know they are short of instructors, a mate of mine just turned down an offer to go be a multi instructor there,- they were offering pretty good coin too.

It's great to see you've got some things lined up now cos ya wanna be prepaired (unlike a lot of people) but I'm sure you'll find some good work cos there are heaps of awesome jobs popping up around the show- Best of luck !

QUOTE

So if you walk away with a CPL and a couple of hundred flying hours and a degree for around $100k, you're probably doing OK... I have seen people on pprune quoting the current costs for a CPL from Ab Initio to be around AU$80k... so if you get some edu-ma-kation to go with it, it does not seem to ridiculous...[/quote]

I've seen that thread. In nz (and prob all over the world) the cost of flying is going through the roof although we are still one of the cheapest places in the world to learn to fly, hence why CTC send their cadets all the way from the UK to learn to fly in the tron. In saying that you should still be able to do a PPL, CPL and MEIR under 60k even at the factories,- even under 50 at alot of places. Still not cheap.

A185F

Sim-holic

 

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:25 pm

Posts: 613

Location: right behind my laptop

Top

[A185F]

However in saying all that garble, no matter where you learnt to fly,- It's a bloody good time to start cos there are soon to be some big movement around the place and more and more pilots will be needed !

[Brennanx]

do you drive the tractor to Massey? and for fun do you do square dancing in the local barn? its fun to mock people that live by massey

[ZK-KAG]

QUOTE

The reason I asked is I know theat massey used to offer a type of internship thing where they would take you on as an instructor but not pay you untill you were a B-cat or something (a very nastey practice still being done by a few places in nz that I know of) I cant remember the all the details. Do they still do something like this ? and how does it work ? I know they are short of instructors, a mate of mine just turned down an offer to go be a multi instructor there,- they were offering pretty good coin too.[/quote].

Quite right I forgot about that. Yeah upon gaining your C-cat rating halfway through the 3rd year, you work for free as an instructor for the rest of the year (as technically you are still a student), and get rid of the supervision. Although Im pretty sure they are paid for running ops and doing other stuff around the place. Its free instructor hours and if there are spaces availiable for the next year you are employed as staff... Most get employed unless they want to go off and work elsewhere.

QUOTE

do you drive the tractor to Massey? and for fun do you do square dancing in the local barn? its fun to mock people that live by massey[/quote]

Wow...your IQ must be out of this world to make a comment like that. Do you even know which town Im in??

ZK-KAG

Sim-holic

 

Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:20 pm

Posts: 729

Location: Palmerston North / Auckland

Top

[Matthew]

QUOTE (A185F @ Nov 12 2007, 02:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AS for the student loans and sausage factories,- with the new part 141 coming out all flight trainging will have to be done under a 141 cirtificate (which is stupid,- even for me to do type ratings an stuff I still have to be under a 141), what this means is that all the smaller aero clubs and flight schools will have to get 141 and when they do, they are then able to provide NZQA acredited (and student loan funded) courses if they wish to do so.

Do you know where I can find more information about the provision for NZQA accredited courses under CAR Part 141?

Thanks,

Matthew

[A185F]

Not 100% sure, the NZQA courses are done through tertiary education providers e.g the NAC, IAANZ, waikato AC, AFS (i think) and others are all done in conjunction with NMIT, that could be a good place to start or even NZQA. Dunno how helpfull the caa website will be