Victor Airways? Jet Airways?

[kiwibarguy]

Thanks to towerguy im studying navigation tonight from all the charts he sent me. Once again thanks alot!!!

So i noticed, as i said on the topic title, that there are Victor airways and Jet airways, what are these?

I noticed from the enroute charts i was given that the heading route number for Rotovegas to Hamilton is 325, the same path heading that is on the Victor and Jet Airways.

Victor ??? Jet Airways???

Should i fly along the route line of these as well? Do i have to be exact?? or can i fly in the general vicinity of them.

Each day i feel the need to go and do some navigation training at the North Shore Aero Club. Next thing i know i will be strapping myself in.

Pretty infectious stuff this.

[Alex]

Victor Airways are low-altitude airways. Jet airways are high-altitude airways. These are used relatively extensively in North America and Europe, but not so much in New Zealand I believe.

Alex

[kiwibarguy]

Got ya!!!

Hey can i ask another question Alex. You know when we come into a controlled zone, should i contact the tower before or as soon as i have entered that airspace?

[Alex]

Usually before, then you get clearance into the controlled zone. Unless of course you are entering from another controlled zone, then you are told when to contact (although depends on class of airspace I think).

Alex

[kiwibarguy]

Thanks mate.

[Alex]

No worries.

Alex

[greaneyr]

QUOTE (kiwibarguy @ Nov 26 2007, 08:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks to towerguy im studying navigation tonight from all the charts he sent me. Once again thanks alot!!!

So i noticed, as i said on the topic title, that there are Victor airways and Jet airways, what are these?

I noticed from the enroute charts i was given that the heading route number for Rotovegas to Hamilton is 325, the same path heading that is on the Victor and Jet Airways.

Victor ??? Jet Airways???

Should i fly along the route line of these as well? Do i have to be exact?? or can i fly in the general vicinity of them.

Each day i feel the need to go and do some navigation training at the North Shore Aero Club. Next thing i know i will be strapping myself in.

Pretty infectious stuff this.

Yeah it's bad news huh?

Ok, I'll have a go at explaining the airways. The designation actually has nothing to do with the heading. It's a title given to a line that passes over a series of waypoints. Have a look at this doc (http://www.caa.govt.nz/airspace/AirNavR ... Routes.pdf) from CAA to follow what I'm talking about. In the first case (W100) the route is called W100. The route is a series of waypoints (WN - OPAKU - NP) and it is abbreviated in literature as W100. If you look at an IFR chart, you'll see it by that name. You may also see it referred to in standard route clearances (common combinations of routes from one airport to another). For example, a standard route from Wellington to Auckland might read 'WN W100 NP AA'. You can see how the route number was used in exchange for an actual routing. I guess you could think of a route number as a highway name, like SH1, SH2, SH50 etc.

Why the different letters at the beginning of the route designation? That is also explained at the beginning of the doc.

What about 'Victor' and 'Jet' airways?
Well, remember, FS was written in the US - possibly THE worst country I know of for not considering the fact that other countries may do things differently to them. We don't use them here, but our scenery has to pretend we do. I'd say that Victor airways are low level ones while Jet airways are high level ones. In NZ, a 'Victor Lane' is a VFR transit lane where VFR flights are allowed to traverse controlled airspace without needing to call the associated ATS unit, so one would assume that Victor routes are for VFR flights... but I could be very wrong there.

Do you have to fly on them?
I'll use another example: http://www.aip.net.nz/pdf/NZAA_54.1_61.1.pdf This is a list of standard route clearances ex Auckland. Look at the route from Auckland to Napier. It's called "AANR3" and the actual path is just written as "H372". Take a look at the CAA doc and you'll see that H372 is in fact AA - TULMI - RO - MOOSE - NR. If you were flying IFR from Auckland to Napier on that flight plan, they yes you would have to fly on them. If you are going to, then make sure you adhere to the MSAs (minimum safety altitudes) too, since you won't be able to see the terrain (you'll be flying on instruments). Of course, if you're just blasting around the skies purely visual, then you can go more or less wherever you want. So the answer is really: It depends.

I hope this helps.

Regards
Richard

[kiwibarguy]

Thanks Richard!!!!

Yes i'm getting it. AA (Auckland) via route TULMI to RO (Rotorua) then route MOOSE to NR (Napier) !!!

Could i ask about the 'Enroute DME Descent'.

For example on the TULMI route to Rotorua it says '20RO' and then '4500' then further on closer to Rotorua it says '10RO' and '3600'.

I have a feeling that 4500 and 3600 are feet or metres, although not sure which. 20RO and 10RO are kms to destination.

-------------------

Ok i have worked out that 20RO stands for 20 nautical miles and RO being my reference point (Rotorua) but im still not sure on 'MSA after decent' number. Is this the altitude ceiling or height i must stay at? What exactly does MSA stand for?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Jimmy]

Units are feet and miles, nm. These would think these consider both the MDA and MRA.

You can contact a controller when still on the ground also, if you will be entering the control zone after departure, it doesn't matter to much when you do, as long as you don't go entering the control zone before contacting. If VFR you will also need to advise when leaving a tower control zone.

Thanks
James

[kiwibarguy]

So i have my enroute charts (thanks to towerguy LEGEND ) but how will i know when to let the tower know that i am about to leave their airspace without clicking onto the flight planner to see where i am and is it even ok to switch to my flight planner while online ?

Or maybe there is a certain number on my charts that could help me????

[Jimmy]

If you are VFR, you would have differant charts that show land features also, with them you would look out for a certain land feature, such as coastline, that would indicate that you are leaving the area. If you don't have the charts the map is always good, you certainly can use the map, might be good to have a look before your flight to get a good idea. Tower areas are usualy based around land and other airports and visual reporting points.

Thanks
James

[greaneyr]

QUOTE (kiwibarguy @ Nov 27 2007, 02:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Richard!!!!

Yes i'm getting it. AA (Auckland) via route TULMI to RO (Rotorua) then route MOOSE to NR (Napier) !!!

Could i ask about the 'Enroute DME Descent'.

For example on the TULMI route to Rotorua it says '20RO' and then '4500' then further on closer to Rotorua it says '10RO' and '3600'.

I have a feeling that 4500 and 3600 are feet or metres, although not sure which. 20RO and 10RO are kms to destination.

-------------------

Ok i have worked out that 20RO stands for 20 nautical miles and RO being my reference point (Rotorua) but im still not sure on 'MSA after decent' number. Is this the altitude ceiling or height i must stay at? What exactly does MSA stand for?

Any help would be appreciated.

Nearly... Except TULMI isn't a route, it's a waypoint. http://www.caa.govt.nz/airspace/AirNavReg/...cant_Points.pdf There's a list of all waypoints and navigation aids within the NZ FIR and Auckland Oceanic FIR. Auckland, TULMI, Rotorua, MOOSE, Napier. Not so long ago, waypoints in New Zealand used to have longer names "eg Rangitaiki South" but were shortened on charts and flight plans (RKS). There has been a project being undertaken over the last few years to standardise our waypoints to the ICAO-standard 5-letter convention. In some cases, this has meant the disestablishment of some waypoints and creation of new ones. In other cases, it has just meant they are renamed. Rangitaiki South is called "TAIKI" now, for example. Think of a waypoint as being just like a navigation aid, except without the transmitter. It's a stationary point on the earth's surface.

The MSAs are in feet, and the distances are in miles. Obviously as you get closer to an airport, the MSA will decrease. They sometimes call these "DME Steps".

Knowing when you are leaving airspace just involves a lot of familiarising between charts and what you see outside, unless you are flying IFR. That's why they leave cross-country flying until later in the PPL syllabus. It's made even harder on the relatively sparse scenery of FS, compared to what you see in real life.

Regards
Richard

[Alex]

MSA stands for 'Minimum Safe Altitude' by the way; fairly self explanatory.

Your GPS might be a help regarding the airspace classes - it might pay to have a look and see whether the airspace boundaries on it are accurate.

Alex

[deeknow]

This is very timely, have been wondering about some of these topics recently myself.

Thanx for the great answers Richard (& others), and nice work Kiwibarguy for asking on behalf of the rest of us :-)

Is much of this sort of detail covered in the tutorials in the game? Or is it the sort of thing you'd really only get out
of manuals from a PPL course or something? And is there an FAQ in the forum we should be reading. Been really
impressed how tolerant you guys are of questions that are no doubt always popping up

Dean

[Alex]

QUOTE (deeknow @ Nov 27 2007, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is much of this sort of detail covered in the tutorials in the game? Or is it the sort of thing you'd really only get out
of manuals from a PPL course or something? And is there an FAQ in the forum we should be reading. Been really
impressed how tolerant you guys are of questions that are no doubt always popping up

Hmm, I'm not sure if it would be covered in the in-game documentation. I would think that it would be covered to some extent, but probably not as fully as described here by Richard et al.

Usually you can pick up stuff like this from Wikipedia, or from another place (e.g. IVAO for me), and probably a decent amount from the CAA and AIP websites.

Nope, we don't have a FAQ section for questions like this (or at all, I think...)...

Alex

[towerguy]

DME steps are step down changes in the enroute MSA ( minimum safe altitude ) as you get closer to a destination. So to use an example

20RO 4500 10RO 3600

means that once you are within 20DME of RO your MSA becomes 4500 feet and then within 10DME of RO it lowers again to 3600 feet.

the distance is a DME measure in nm - remember that a DME distance is straight line ie 'slant distance'

Once you are cleared to a lower level you will usually be told either "descend to 4000ft radar terrain" if the radar controller is taking the responsibility for terrain avoidance using a special radar terrain map, or "descend DME Steps to 4000ft" meaning that you are now cleared down to 4000ft but it is up to you to comply with the DME step altitudes. **caution** If flying into a procedurally controlled airport - always always always check the DME steps! If you get told "descend to 4000ft." check the steps - maybe they just forgot to add the "via the DME steps". Don't laugh - I've seen a serious incident before that was just exactly that."

when departing you can be given a clearance that involves 'climb above DME steps...' this requires you to reach the first level maintaining terrain clearance visually and then you have to climb ensuring you reach the level of the NEXT step prior to the distance, so ....

leave RO visually to 3600ft and on track, but you have to reach 4500ft prior to 10DME and the route or next step by 20DME

easiest way to think about it is to visualise the DME steps like a set of stairs - you have to lower your foot over the steps and you have to have your foot above the next step before putting it forward on the way up. easy really.

cheers.