Skyhawks are now outside

[Gavin Conroy]

If you want to see more picures like the ones below have a look at this link: http://capphotography.fotopic.net/c1423645.html

[Charl]

On balance, probably not.
I'm sure they are very good photos as you have amply demonstrated elsewhere.
I'm sure someone knows something about all this, that perhaps they aren't telling us.
I do hope so...

[deaneb]

QUOTE (Jenks @ Dec 14 2007, 07:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Skyhawks ARE effectively 'stuffed'. If you read/listen more carefully you will note that he says that any sale would require the aircraft to be in working order - something which they are a LONG way away from now. Many parts are time expired and some have no replacements available. There are also no personnel available that are capable of all the work necessary to get them airworthy - the government sacked them all remember...

The government will never be willing to spend those sort of amounts. Politically they are in hot water already with the imaginary buyers still failing to materialise. Having to admit that they haven't maintained the aircraft adequately and that they are unsaleable in their current state without yet another substantial investment, will not be somewhere that they would go. The government's intention has probably always been to just hope that we all forget about the aircraft over time. Most people accept that the sale was NEVER achievable.

The Macchis fall into the same category. They were never going to able to be sold - although in their case it was mainly down to their ongoing engine problems.

The imaginary buyers for the Skyhawks have never fronted up in public and to the best of my knowledge have been quoted variously as bankrupt, or never having had that sort of money.

There has yet to be ANY evidence produced that the sale of the Skyhawks was ever anything other than a fairytale... politics at its worst is all it could ever be accurately described as, or more particularly Helen Clark's personal agenda, and the government is obviously never going to admit to that.

Finally, they can no longer really be described as 'good planes'. Consider that they were running out of life when we still had them operational - that's why the F16s were being purchased. Having them rot in a hangar for years didn't help their saleability, but putting them outside is going to make them even worse. The spraylat will give some protection but not enough, particularly as they have only covered some areas with plastic bags, cardboard and tape! Corrosion from moist, salt laden air will not be stopped by cardboard.

Just in case anyone thinks this is just a personal opinion, have a read at http://rnzaf.proboards43.com/index.cgi?board=Postwar
There are some knowledgeable people contributing on those forums.

Jenks

I work for the RNZAF and the project manager for the disposal of these aircraft was working from our office just the other day. You have no idea of what you are talking about, and simply reading info from forums cannot be taken as gospel.
For your info the Air Force never sacked all the technicians, there were a variety of people who left from accross the RNZAF, but most thru attrition. There are still many ex Skyhawk techs left. This is of no signigficance anyway as Safe Air have carried out all the deep level maintenance of the A4's for many years and they remain the contactor for all the disposal maintenance, including the storage.
Storage at Woodbourne is probably the best place in NZ due to the extremely low humidity, so your talk of aircraft rotting in moist salt laden air is a joke. While there is no doubt that it is less than ideal not being hangared, it is the best option that could be sought under the circumstances.
All the potential buyers have all been blown away by how good these aircraft are. Once the US state department make up their mind things will happen very fast. The talk of their being no buyers is also a fallacy.
Deane

[Ian Warren]

Heck delivery of the Skyhawk early 1970 , mmm at one stage, they were to be thrown off the deck of the USS Okinawa albeit the ship was in a storm . more to that story, but 37 years later , I really do wonder , tough little bu**ers , they out lived newer Strikemasters , wonder if NZ-couriers want to buy em as speed pack delivery systems ..... steady....steady... release......package delivered .....YIPPPEEEE

[steelsporran]

QUOTE (Ian Warren @ Dec 19 2007, 11:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

..wonder if NZ-couriers want to buy em as speed pack delivery systems ..... steady....steady... release......package delivered .....YIPPPEEEE

I hope not if they observe flight rules as they do the road code.

[Jenks]

As I said Deane, it is not just my personal opinion. Read those forums and you will see that there are many people posting on there, some that are also still in the RNZAF, and presumably their info is just as reliable as yours - but also completely at odds with yours. Just because someone works or lives nearby does not mean that their information is any more reliable than someone elses. In particular Don Simms would appear to be a lot more knowledgeable than both you or I Deane.

It is in no-ones interest to get the Skyhawk sale thwarted, it's just that a fair few people have come to realise that there was never going to be a sale.

You also unwittingly agree about there being no buyers - as you call them yourself 'potential buyers' - that can be stretched to include the Warbirds association or anyone else that would like to have a Skyhawk. The point of it is that none of them have ever fronted up or been able to be found when the questions are asked. Investigation by the media into finding these 'potential buyers' has always come up completely empty.

As for the US having problems with combat capable aircraft being used by terrorists. That is most likely something that they can invoke if they feel like it. Look at how many combat capable aircraft are in private hands in the US - including a VERY combat capable Sea Harrier!

Feel free to provide some sort of evidence that the buyers and the sale are real... or that the aircraft themselves are even flyable...

[FlyingKiwi]

Purely out of interest, are they actually worth very much at all anymore? I mean, assuming complete airworthiness and so forth - I realise they have the upgraded radar which must add to the value, but the Skyhawk was, as I understand it, always a relatively low cost aircraft (at least in terms of fighter/bomber aircraft) so do they retain much value in the current market? Considering how quickly military aircraft devalue, I was just wondering this - not wanting to start a fight or anything, simply intrigued.

[Ian Warren]

QUOTE (steelsporran @ Dec 15 2007, 12:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope not if they observe flight rules as they do the road code.

Hi ya Steel , nah .. think the,ll be on a higher level , I do believe the new noise restrictions may be a problem tho

Hey KIWI , I'll start the bid .. maybe

[Gavin Conroy]

QUOTE (Charl @ Dec 19 2007, 11:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

On balance, probably not.
I'm sure they are very good photos as you have amply demonstrated elsewhere.
I'm sure someone knows something about all this, that perhaps they aren't telling us.
I do hope so...

Well I am not saying they are good photos but because I am here and get to see them close up I thought that all aviation people would like to see whats happening with the aircraft as many people dont get the chance to see these aircraft.
There is still a lot of interest in the aircraft no matter what state they are in..

I would like many others rather see them green and at 400 knots.

[steelsporran]

QUOTE (Ian Warren @ Dec 20 2007, 02:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do believe the new noise restrictions may be a problem tho

The rules will only apply to new imports, not existing. Even as I write the LTSA is wetting the tickets, bus, wrist slapping, for the use of.

[Alex]

Obviously it's a very contentious issue, probably one that only time will reveal the outcome (although National may have something to say about it should they get into office late next year)...

Alex

[deaneb]

QUOTE (Jenks @ Dec 15 2007, 01:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I said Deane, it is not just my personal opinion. Read those forums and you will see that there are many people posting on there, some that are also still in the RNZAF, and presumably their info is just as reliable as yours - but also completely at odds with yours. Just because someone works or lives nearby does not mean that their information is any more reliable than someone elses. In particular Don Simms would appear to be a lot more knowledgeable than both you or I Deane.

It is in no-ones interest to get the Skyhawk sale thwarted, it's just that a fair few people have come to realise that there was never going to be a sale.

You also unwittingly agree about there being no buyers - as you call them yourself 'potential buyers' - that can be stretched to include the Warbirds association or anyone else that would like to have a Skyhawk. The point of it is that none of them have ever fronted up or been able to be found when the questions are asked. Investigation by the media into finding these 'potential buyers' has always come up completely empty.

As for the US having problems with combat capable aircraft being used by terrorists. That is most likely something that they can invoke if they feel like it. Look at how many combat capable aircraft are in private hands in the US - including a VERY combat capable Sea Harrier!

Feel free to provide some sort of evidence that the buyers and the sale are real... or that the aircraft themselves are even flyable...

Jenks

There in lies the problem of the other forum - everybody is hanging off the words of the great Don Simms - The guy got the boot when they disbanded his beloved Skyhawks and he never got over it. He has quote "no idea" un-quote of what he is talking about with regard to the sale as he has not been in the RNZAF for the last 6 or so years. He is disliked by everybody in the RNZAF including the guys I know who worked with him on the squadron. The media of course love him as he loves to say what everyone wants to hear.

Once again and for the record, a buyer is signed up to buy the aircraft. The only delay is getting US State Department approval.
Whether that happens or not is another matter.
As for aircraft being flyable - of course they are - they all flew into WB after all. As stated previously any aircraft in storage is going to need a variety of maintenance and there will be time expired items. Not a lot that can be done about that.

In the mean time enjoy reading the speculation !!!

Deane

[Ian Warren]

QUOTE (Alex @ Dec 15 2007, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Obviously it's a very contentious issue, probably one that only time will reveal the outcome (although National may have something to say about it should they get into office late next year)...

Alex

I was hoping to Vote for the NZFF Party what! , WHO forgot to register NZFF ?

[twinstarda42]

QUOTE (Jenks @ Dec 15 2007, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I said Deane, it is not just my personal opinion. Read those forums and you will see that there are many people posting on there, some that are also still in the RNZAF, and presumably their info is just as reliable as yours - but also completely at odds with yours. Just because someone works or lives nearby does not mean that their information is any more reliable than someone elses. In particular Don Simms would appear to be a lot more knowledgeable than both you or I Deane.

It is in no-ones interest to get the Skyhawk sale thwarted, it's just that a fair few people have come to realise that there was never going to be a sale.

You also unwittingly agree about there being no buyers - as you call them yourself 'potential buyers' - that can be stretched to include the Warbirds association or anyone else that would like to have a Skyhawk. The point of it is that none of them have ever fronted up or been able to be found when the questions are asked. Investigation by the media into finding these 'potential buyers' has always come up completely empty.



Feel free to provide some sort of evidence that the buyers and the sale are real... or that the aircraft themselves are even flyable...

hello re: this above in regards to evidence of sale unless signing a sale agreement pending certain sale conditions(i.e state dept) is not enough as advertised and highlighted many times in the NEWS media /RNZAF NEWS etc etc at the time(2005), as with all sales documents it would cost the signee to much depending on the sale agreement in regards to penelty payment plus more etc not to proceed unless the sale provides an out.

Re: US WARBIRDS

They don't have a problem with them all jet warbirds in the US are required to be secured(locked) in a secure hanger with empty fuel tanks whilst not in use, if the owner wants to fly the aircraft more than 100 miles from the home airport they have to apply to the FAA for special permission to do so - all of the warbirds currently in the USA are nuted so speak all weapons systems capability and contact points have been removed and would be extremely hard to reintegrate if someone tried to do so.

RE: Media
they have a habit these days of leaving the facts out of news items choosing to go for sensationlism i.e mallard-henare which was actually self defence(hard to believe by most people but that what the actual facts stipulate) on mallards part what would you do if someone was throttling you round the throat (let them)-but the media have chosen to pertray the opposite.- same with this.

Re: don
if you not willing to believe or listen to deane who actually works in the office responsible for the aircraft and as much up to speed as anyone in NZ can get in regards to the condition/ what going on with the aircraft etc and choose to follow blindly others persons opinions who have not been near a skyhawk for over six years and is way outside the loop in regards to what is going on then their not alot to say really.

re: posting on proboard by current RNZAF personnel, The RNZAF works on a need to no basis and if you don't need to know they will not tell their personnell anything if it not relevent their job, Position etc, which can create a lot of here say or gossip - in regards to proboard present serving personnel frequenting on the forum they tend to either stay off the skyhawk/macchi threads or make comments that are neutral.

anyway have a great weekend cheers.

[twinstarda42]

QUOTE (FlyingKiwi @ Dec 15 2007, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Purely out of interest, are they actually worth very much at all anymore? I mean, assuming complete airworthiness and so forth - I realise they have the upgraded radar which must add to the value, but the Skyhawk was, as I understand it, always a relatively low cost aircraft (at least in terms of fighter/bomber aircraft) so do they retain much value in the current market? Considering how quickly military aircraft devalue, I was just wondering this - not wanting to start a fight or anything, simply intrigued.

roughly 12 million NZ $ for a TA-4j in restored flying condition with steam gauges(avionics) was the going rate up until a few years ago from a company that was restoring t-birds in the USA so roughly 12 million + NZ $ wise, although this A-4B Skyhawk in musuem condition which will need work to return to flying condition as it hasn't flown since 1992 sold resently for US $ 275.000. see link http://www.courtesyaircraft.com/41CJ%20Dou...-4B%20Specs.htm

[A185F]

12 mil for an antiquated piece of 1950s junk !?!?! (actually no not junk I love the skyhawks) but FAR OUT !!! Considdering the unit cost for a F-16A/B being around 15mil us and private fully flying F-100F super sabre for $600k us (real 50s junk) and a 64 saab J-35 Draken fully flying for us $350k... Where on earth does that 12 mil go ???!!!
Expencive little buggers aren't they

BTW Raptor aviation have an old A-4L for $89k, does need a bit of work though !

[jastheace]

i heard that the US state dept won't allow the sale to anyone as they have a whole desert filled with a/c that they are trying to sell!!!! all i have to say is it is shuch a shame, my grandfather and all the fallen service men from the airforce must be spinning in there graves with the whole sorry shamble. my grandfather was a mechanic in WWII keeping the a/c in the air, he would be gutted to see this!

[Charl]

QUOTE (Gavin Conroy @ Dec 15 2007, 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...There is still a lot of interest in the aircraft no matter what state they are in..

...and for all the wrong reasons.
The whole Skyhawk debacle should've been dealt with, and out of the way, years ago, never mind the merits.
Can't figure out which is more distasteful: politicians playing soldier, or the military playing politics.
And the outcomes disturbingly similar for a change: tax dollars down the gurgler, big time.

[twinstarda42]

QUOTE (twinstarda42 @ Dec 16 2007, 07:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

roughly 12 million NZ $ for a TA-4j in restored flying condition with steam gauges(avionics) was the going rate up until a few years ago from a company that was restoring t-birds in the USA so roughly 12 million + NZ $ wise, although this A-4B Skyhawk in musuem condition which will need work to return to flying condition as it hasn't flown since 1992 sold resently for US $ 275.000. see link http://www.courtesyaircraft.com/41CJ%20Dou...-4B%20Specs.htm

Sorry got the price wrong on this post Gave you the price for a F-16a non flying Project , actual TA-4 price was 4.5 to 5 million for fully restored TA-J and that was at least 3 years ago.

sorry cheers.

[deaneb]

QUOTE (Charl @ Dec 16 2007, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...and for all the wrong reasons.
The whole Skyhawk debacle should've been dealt with, and out of the way, years ago, never mind the merits.
Can't figure out which is more distasteful: politicians playing soldier, or the military playing politics.
And the outcomes disturbingly similar for a change: tax dollars down the gurgler, big time.

And how should it have been dealt with years ago Charl ??
BTW the military dies not play politics. The retirement of the combat force and disposal of these aircraft is outside of the Air Force.

Deane