Eventful day at Wanaka

[deaneb]

Another mitigating factor for landing downwind, is that many skydive operations are operating high perfromance STOL aircraft such as the Cresco and Walter turbine Fletcher. These aircraft have very low stall speeds when empty and have reverse thrust to shorten ground roll. As already discussed, most GA aircraft would think twice before landing downwind, but it is easier with the STOL planes and in a commercial situation it makes sense to avoid long taxi times I guess.

Deane

[Charl]

QUOTE (squirrel350 @ Jan 18 2008, 07:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very interesting reading in this little debate as some one stated if one has been to NZAP you will see that it is common practice

Might be an unfortunate choice of airport to hold up for comparision:
NZ Herald June 02, 2006
The black star, the worst possible rating issued by the International Federation of Airline Pilots Associations (IFALPA), categorised airport safety at Taupo as "critically deficient".

[HardCorePawn]

QUOTE (happytraveller @ Jan 18 2008, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To quote Jools27 "Malfunction parachutes are part of skydiving as much as a flat tyre is a part of driving". I think that a malfunctioning parachute is rather more serious than a flat tyre on a car. I would prefer a flat tyre. I can understand that Skydive Wanaka want to avoid publicity over this matter.

To be honest, I think a better analogy would have been to say that a malfunctioning parachute is to sky diving as a tyre blowout is to driving... they do not happen often, but they can and do happen... neither one is a good thing, so you do what you can to minimise the risk (eg. pack the chute carefully/check the condition of your tyres regularly), but the only way to remove the risk altogether is to not skydive and not drive.

Life is one big risk assessment really... no matter what you do there is some level of risk involved...

[happytraveller]

I am going to disagree strongly on this, there are procedures to be followed and also rules laid down in the AIP for NZ which apply to ALL aircraft. Safety should be the highest priority and action should be taken before there is an accident. I will wait to see what the CAA do about this, but after my reading of the AIP rules and laws, it seems clear who is in the wrong here. There is a reason for having circuit procedures, and for making sure that ALL aircraft follow the same rules and procedures. Imagine if everybody started landing in whatever direction they felt like. Safety must be the highest priority and any dangerous practices must be stopped.

Smooth landings (into wind).

[Matthew]

QUOTE (HardCorePawn @ Jan 18 2008, 11:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To be honest, I think a better analogy would have been to say that a malfunctioning parachute is to sky diving as a tyre blowout is to driving... they do not happen often, but they can and do happen... neither one is a good thing, so you do what you can to minimise the risk (eg. pack the chute carefully/check the condition of your tyres regularly), but the only way to remove the risk altogether is to not skydive and not drive.

Life is one big risk assessment really... no matter what you do there is some level of risk involved...

Thats a really good way of putting it...and you're absolutely right

QUOTE (happytraveller @ Jan 19 2008, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am going to disagree strongly on this, there are procedures to be followed and also rules laid down in the AIP for NZ which apply to ALL aircraft. Safety should be the highest priority and action should be taken before there is an accident. I will wait to see what the CAA do about this, but after my reading of the AIP rules and laws, it seems clear who is in the wrong here. There is a reason for having circuit procedures, and for making sure that ALL aircraft follow the same rules and procedures. Imagine if everybody started landing in whatever direction they felt like. Safety must be the highest priority and any dangerous practices must be stopped.

Smooth landings (into wind).

Unless your absolutely sure of what you're doing, I wouldn't do that

[happytraveller]

Perhaps I can add that 3 of the people that I have flown with in NZ are now dead in separate accidents, so there is a good reason to be very hot on safety.

smooth landings.

[Jools27]

QUOTE (happytraveller @ Jan 19 2008, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps I can add that 3 of the people that I have flown with in NZ are now dead in separate accidents, so there is a good reason to be very hot on safety.

smooth landings.

Dear Happy Traveller,

Thank you for for all your communication on this forum and your communication with CAA who we met with today, along with all the other users at Wanaka Airport. CAA have totally accepted that our operation is safe and our flying practices are also safe. In 12 years of operation we have 2 minor sprained ankles, a safety record that would be hard to beat in New Zealand and probably the world. CAA has contacted you regarding this matter so we do believe it is best left in their hands.

A very positive thing did happen for us today, CAA called all the operators at Wanaka Airport to discuss your concerns about us with them and all of the operators stated that they hold our operation in high regard and have NEVER EVER had a conflict with us in our 12 years of operation. If you have a problem with our operations then we would invite you to call in the Wanaka Airport in person and talk these over with us and our pilots in the future instead of calling CAA to investigate. Peter one of our pilots is an instructor and held in very high regard at Wanaka Airport as is Hamish who has many thousands of flying hours behind him.

To hide behind anonomus complaints with CAA is concerning to us as communication is the key to safe aviation. I am not sure what we have done to upset you but it would give us great pleasure to meet with you in person and talk about your concerns. Dave my husband has been involved with aviation all his life - his father was a top dressing pilot - so we are not just a bunch of amateurs.

Going back to the parachute malfunction issue, I am not trying to hide from publicity or cover up anything, I did speak with the media and once I explained exactly what a malfunction is and what happens in skydiving when one happens they were not interested in making a storey about nothing or paying for pictures. I am sorry that there was no story, I personally do not hide from incidents and I am proud to stand up and face up to situations if I believe they cause for concern. Again I would invite you to come to our operation and have a look at our parachute gear, meet our crew and see exactly what happens when a parachute malfunctions and what we do about this. I would be so honoured to educate you about malfunctions and hope that you would be open to being educated about skydiving and our operation. We are a small family run operation and take a huge amount of pride in what we do, we have worked 7 days a week for the last 12 years - skydiving is our passion.

We very much look forward to any posts - our phone number is in the phone book and you know where we operate ! - Jools Hall, Managing Director, Skydive Lake Wanaka

[K5054NZ]

Without wanting to start another round of nasty back and forth, bravo Jools and thank you so very much for explaining this all to us! It's been fantastic to have everything straightened out.

[Q300]

Yup its good to see it sorted!
And thanks for keeping us informed Jools

[happytraveller]

Have to put the record straight. I did put both my name and address to the CAA and also met with the CAA yesterday (Wednesday) to discuss the problems. I am awaiting a reply from the CAA now, but I will be giving the practices by Skydive Wanaka pilots full publicity, as landing and taking off against the normal circuit traffic pattern is a safety issue.

smooth landings (in the normal circuit direction).

EDITED BY MODERATOR: I've taken an unusual step for me, by editing this post. This is so that happytraveller's message still gets across. The rest, which I removed, was just a rehash of what has been said before, and adds nothing.
-Robin Corn

[Ian Warren]

Jezzzz, I Don't no what the fuss is about ! , I thought i was a bloody tennis ball !

[A185F]

For goodness sake. I'm telling you now, there is no safety issue with what is going on there. If there is an aircraft down wind for (can't remember rwys at Wanaka but I think 29/11 ? use that as eg anyway) 29 and the jump plane is joining high finals for 11 and lands and vacates before the one for 29 THERE IS NO PROBLEM. As long as they know each others intentions and avoid and keep clear accordingly it is all fine. The fact of the matter is, at an uncontrolled aerodrome, people CAN DO WHAT THEY PLEASE. Infact at controlled aerodromes as well, all you have to do is ask. If they can fit you in with traffic sequencing (as with an uncontrolled aerodrome) to land downwind while other traffic is in the circuit, they will. Operating against a "normal" (exactly how do you define) traffic pattern IS COMMON PRACTICE ALL OVER THE WORLD !!!! Another common one is circuiting for another vector whilst others are in another circuit. Tis very common even in training. I remember at west melton when I was training with like 2 in the circuit for 04 and us doing crosswinds on 29 (I think it's 29 there, cant remember). Very common. As long as you work in with the other traffic and avoid etc etc you are fine.
I think you are simply misinterpreting what you think are circuit "rules". Trying to change the way people fly and have done for years and do all over the world is NOT GOING TO DO YOU ANY FAVOURS, trust me.

Rant over.

P.s, nothing personal, I just think this is getting a bit ridiculas.

[Matthew]

Thanks to Jools at Skydive Lake Wanaka for keeping us informed

QUOTE (A185F @ Jan 23 2008, 05:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just think this is getting a bit rediculas.

I agree but its best to let CAA straighten everything out, I think

[A185F]

I have been very tempted to close this topic as I think we are just running round in circles HOWEVER after a bit of reconsideration I do think it is important for people to share their views and concerns on matters such as these. I would also be interested to see any new developments (i.e responces from the caa) on this matter.

[toprob]

QUOTE (A185F @ Jan 23 2008, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have been very tempted to close this topic as I think we are just running round in circles HOWEVER after a bit of reconsideration I do think it is important for people to share their views and concerns on matters such as these. I would also be interested to see any new developments (i.e responces from the caa) on this matter.

Yes, I think it has worked out quite well considering, but I would caution against anyone using the forum as their own personal soapbox -- it is certainly not what the forum is here for.

[Q300]

Im not trying to get on anyones nerves or couse problems but im acctuly quite interested in this topic so i talked to some guys at the aeroclub and they stated pretty much what has already been said (We obviously have a few real pilots here) and there input and the input from Jools is great and has helped me and im sure others make educated coments and views on the matter...

[Matthew]

QUOTE (toprob @ Jan 23 2008, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I think it has worked out quite well considering, but I would caution against anyone using the forum as their own personal soapbox -- it is certainly not what the forum is here for.

I agree

[chickenman]

I probably don't have a lot more to add to this thread. Yes - I went squealing to Skydiving Wanaka because I thought that they needed to know what was being said but I did it for another reason.

The goodwill of the operators at these airfields are the reasons that are hobby is so rich in new zealand. Whether you are a repainter, a plane spotter, a scenery designer or other enthusiast - we need the people who run aeroclubs, flight operations, airports and aircraft to think of us in a good light. I have a long standing relationship with Queenstown Airport Corporation which was greatly appreciated when helping Peter Lohr with his NZQN scenery, i also have a great relationship with Aviation Security and CAA, both of whom we need to make sure what we do continues on it's present path. Other Operators I have worked closely with on a personal and professional basis are Real Journeys, Southern Glacier Helicopters, Air Milford, Heliworks and a number of others. I would not do anything that would jepordise this relationship.

If I seen anything 'criminal' I would pass it on to the relevant authorities. If I seen anything that looked 'unsafe' I would pass it on to the operator first and foremost - I would not go to the CAA as I am not an experienced or qualified pilot and do not know enough to make accurate comment. Unless I was an experienced skydiver - I would not comment on skydiving operations. Unless I was an experienced pilot - I would not comment on the safety of flight operations.

Let me expand this a little further. I spot planes - yes it is an odd habit but i enjoy it. I was listening to an A320 circling to land in the Wakitipu Basin at 4000'. A GA plane was cleared to pass 'behind the A320 at 3000' or below' The GA plane passed in front of the A320 at 4000'. The A320 stated that the 'TCAS was going nuts' and that the GA plane had passed within 1NM. Even I know that this breaches a number of laws, regulations and ethics. I did not ring CAA or TAIC. All of the people involved were professionals and I am sure it was handled professionally. It is not in my interest to start a witch hunt. I happen to know that the ANZ & GA pilot were both called to the tower and there was a complaint made.

Please think twice about making comments in forums, to the media, to CAA. You may be thinking about safety but are you really experienced to make that call? I know my limitations do you? Maybe this wouldn't have escalated into a petty discussion if you had asked the question before you made the complaints.

As I said - We depend on the goodwill of the aviation industry. Don't spoil it for the rest of us.

I applaud Jools and other real world operators for responding to these posts openly and honestly, I apprecite all of your comments.

Jamie Marshall

[HardCorePawn]

QUOTE (A185F @ Jan 23 2008, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have been very tempted to close this topic as I think we are just running round in circles HOWEVER after a bit of reconsideration I do think it is important for people to share their views and concerns on matters such as these. I would also be interested to see any new developments (i.e responces from the caa) on this matter.

You and me both... but as everyone has kept it civilised and not resorted to any insults, petty name calling or personal attacks, I felt it best to leave it and see how it developed as there are some valid points being raised and answered...

I had even considered posting a warning message, but as everyone was behaving themselves I did not, and still do not, consider it necessary.

[Jools27]

QUOTE (chickenman @ Jan 23 2008, 09:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I probably don't have a lot more to add to this thread. Yes - I went squealing to Skydiving Wanaka because I thought that they needed to know what was being said but I did it for another reason.

The goodwill of the operators at these airfields are the reasons that are hobby is so rich in new zealand. Whether you are a repainter, a plane spotter, a scenery designer or other enthusiast - we need the people who run aeroclubs, flight operations, airports and aircraft to think of us in a good light. I have a long standing relationship with Queenstown Airport Corporation which was greatly appreciated when helping Peter Lohr with his NZQN scenery, i also have a great relationship with Aviation Security and CAA, both of whom we need to make sure what we do continues on it's present path. Other Operators I have worked closely with on a personal and professional basis are Real Journeys, Southern Glacier Helicopters, Air Milford, Heliworks and a number of others. I would not do anything that would jepordise this relationship.

If I seen anything 'criminal' I would pass it on to the relevant authorities. If I seen anything that looked 'unsafe' I would pass it on to the operator first and foremost - I would not go to the CAA as I am not an experienced or qualified pilot and do not know enough to make accurate comment. Unless I was an experienced skydiver - I would not comment on skydiving operations. Unless I was an experienced pilot - I would not comment on the safety of flight operations.

Let me expand this a little further. I spot planes - yes it is an odd habit but i enjoy it. I was listening to an A320 circling to land in the Wakitipu Basin at 4000'. A GA plane was cleared to pass 'behind the A320 at 3000' or below' The GA plane passed in front of the A320 at 4000'. The A320 stated that the 'TCAS was going nuts' and that the GA plane had passed within 1NM. Even I know that this breaches a number of laws, regulations and ethics. I did not ring CAA or TAIC. All of the people involved were professionals and I am sure it was handled professionally. It is not in my interest to start a witch hunt. I happen to know that the ANZ & GA pilot were both called to the tower and there was a complaint made.

Please think twice about making comments in forums, to the media, to CAA. You may be thinking about safety but are you really experienced to make that call? I know my limitations do you? Maybe this wouldn't have escalated into a petty discussion if you had asked the question before you made the complaints.

As I said - We depend on the goodwill of the aviation industry. Don't spoil it for the rest of us.

I applaud Jools and other real world operators for responding to these posts openly and honestly, I apprecite all of your comments.

Jamie Marshall

Tahnk you Jamie and others for your words of wisdom and support in the most positive of ways. Safety is our proirity at Skydive Lake Wanaka. I am not a pilot but I totally trust and hold in very high regard our 2 pilots both of who have children and famililes and I know are passionate about flying ( Peter also owns Classic Flights - the Tiger Moth operation here at Wanaka Airport ). I will of course take all steps necessary to defend our company's reputation as one of the best skydiving operators in NZ and as I previosly stated I know that CAA will provide all the necessary answers in their investigation.