Air New Zealand 733's

[Kelburn]

This question has pondered me for a while now. I didn't get round to asking either of the five 737-300 pilots I met in the flight deck at the end of my flight.

So what routes do they use for:

NZWN-NZAA and NZAA-NZWN.

Any help would be appreciated as I really feel like doing the flight I was on.

P.S. I will post the videos asap ust got to transfer them from one c to my laptop and then upload them

[greaneyr]

I would imagine they would be the standard routes listed in the AIP. AAWN2 and WNAA4 are the most likely, I would say.

Go to www.aip.net.nz then Aerodromes, then Auckland/Wellington and look for a document called 'standard route clearances'. It will list all standard route clearances for that particular aerodrome.

[AlisterC]

I can pretty confidently confirm that they use the standard routes available at aip as mentioned above. I don't ever fly that route, but every single time I fly the NZCH-NZAA-NZCH route, or the NZCH-NZWN-NZCH route I have without fail been on the standard routes for those airports.

[Kelburn]

Thanks.

Specifically what STAR's do they use (I have suspicion they use the RNAV 23R and 5L)

[NZ255]

Standard Terminal Arrival Route. ATC assigns planes a STAR (available from the AIP) according to the airport/ runway in use. And the pilots look up that STAR/SID (Standard Instrument Departure, if the plane is leaving the airport) on the FMC and flies the navaids that the STAR consists of. This is to take load of ATC. Get it?

[AlisterC]

I think you mean 23L or 5R as the other two runways are closed and used like a taxi way at NZAA.

[Alex]

STARs depend on the active runway and route. Look at the Standard Route tables, then see where the STARs start ... join the dots.

With the idea of RNAV arrivals you have there... I don't think all of Air NZ's 737's are RNAV capable/certified?

Alex

[NZ255]

Whoops - I didn't read the question properly

[greaneyr]

QUOTE (Alex @ May 6 2008, 08:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With the idea of RNAV arrivals you have there... I don't think all of Air NZ's 737's are RNAV capable/certified?

You might be confusing RNAV with RNP. RNAV stands for aRea NAVigation, which is just navigation using multiple aids rather than tracking on a single source. GNSS (formerly GPS) is a form of RNAV, so I'd say flying RNAV arrivals is possible in all ANZ 737s, although I may be wrong. There are also RNAV approaches into Auckland which are RNP0.3, so in that case there would be limitations in certain aircraft flying them. Mind you, the RNAV approaches don't have anything like the same minima as even Cat I ILS so there's no reason for them to fly those approaches. Airways are introducing RNAV approaches to allow for redundancy and to allow the decommissioning of NDBs around the place, but at this stage they won't tackle ILS.

[AlisterC]

At least when i read the Pacific Wings magazine discussing RNAV into Queenstown, it stated that of the Air NZ fleet, I think only 5 were being equipped with the required nav equipment to fly the RNAV approaches into Queenstown. So, if you're flying to Queenstown on an Air NZ 733, you'll probably only get on 1 of 5 from their fleet of 15 everytime. Also not all crew are trained on the rnav approach, just enough
An NG Boeing, or A320, now they are equipped enough by default

[greaneyr]

QUOTE (Albatross @ May 6 2008, 09:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At least when i read the Pacific Wings magazine discussing RNAV into Queenstown, it stated that of the Air NZ fleet, I think only 5 were being equipped with the required nav equipment to fly the RNAV approaches into Queenstown.

Yup. Again, the Queenstown approaches have associated RNP types. There were only so many ANZ 733s that were approved to the RNP levels demanded at NZQN.

RNP does not equal RNAV. They are different concepts. The good-old GPS non-precision approach is actually classed as RNAV, just to put it into perspective. Any suitably equipped aircraft can fly those. All you need is an approved GPS receiver.

[Kelburn]

sorry I did mean 23L and 5R.

I thought it was the visual RNAV approach cause it appeared to be the only approach resembling the one I took.
This pic shows an approximation of the only 737 approach route I have taken into Auckland (Green for 23L and red for 5R)



So can anyone tell me what approach that may be (Like the RNAV, we get lined up with a 4 mile final))

[SA227]

More likely to be a straight out visual look out the window approach rather than the RNAV visual which is rarely used. What ATC will do once the pilot requests a visual approach is they will ask you to track via KAURI or TOMAS which are waypoints on a 3-4 mile final for 05R and 23L with a requirement to maintain 2000ft until cleared lower by NZAA tower.
If you are not RNAV equipped which is actually very rare these days then they will just ask you to track by a 3 mile final.

[AlisterC]

Given the lack of terrain around NZAA there is no need for a complicated RNAV arrival. What you'll probably find is that they are being given vectors by ATC until close to the airport, at which point they go visual on the arrival and fly it in by hand. has anyone seen towerguy lately? He'd be the one to answer this sort of question The STARS into Auckland take the aircraft quite a bit further out from the field, so perhaps Air NZ are trying to save some fuel

[Kelburn]

Ahhh. Cheers.
I was under the impression that they had to use approaches etc.

[towerguy]

Hi there
SA227 and Albatross have got it pretty well right

it all depends on a number of factors - day/night, weather ie cloud base, traffic levels and make up, and although it shouldn't, it can also depend on who is sitting in which chair at the time.

generally if it's daytime and the cloudbase is above 3000' we advertise 'conditions suitable for visual approaches' on the atis. Terminal will either vector towards Kauri or tomas or even direct to the AA VOR anticipating a visual. If the traffic levels pick up then it's easier and more orderly to take everything for the ILS. Same if the weather packs in or if the base lowers then it's ILS. At night you are not supposed to advertise Visuals but we generally bring stuff direct anticipating they will call the visual - if there is any doubt then you will usually get headed toward the ILS, and Internationals are set up for the ILS anyway by both day and night. The 2000' restriction on the descent is to give a buffer against traffic operating in the zone.

The reason for the 3nm final and the establishment of the points Tomas and Kauri is to get traffic established on final by 3nm for the approach monitoring aid to get a reasonable pickup on the target. This alerts if you are not aligned for the correct runway. Designed to reduce the embarrasment ( and huge paperwork load ) of landing on the wrong runway.

If you want to get a general feel for the operation into AA then basically track to Waiuku WI and Tomas for a visual to 23L or via Emrag for the ILS 23L. Try maintaining 2000ft to about clendon park to simulate a bit of a hold up and then descend around onto final from there.
For 05r then via Pokom (AA 160R50D) direct to Lengu for an ILS 05R or cut the corner toward Kauri for the visual.
If you are doing a night freight run then just head direct to the AA vor and then go balls to the wall and get in in front of anything on approach if possible. Thats about it really.

Welcome to AA - now get off the damn runway - I've got 3 on final behind you and 6 at the holding point!

[AlisterC]

AWESOME info, thanks TG

[SA227]

QUOTE

it all depends on a number of factors[/quote]

You left one out. The TMA controller

[towerguy]

QUOTE (SA227 @ May 9 2008, 10:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You left one out. The TMA controller

nope - as I said it all depends on who is sitting in which seat.

[SA227]

QUOTE

nope - as I said it all depends on who is sitting in which seat.[/quote]

oops missed it.