Air NZ and Biofuels

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Postby Anthony » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:56 pm

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/413551/1830035

QUOTE
Air NZ embracing biofuels
Jun 5, 2008 6:59 AM

Air New Zealand will become the first airline in the world to test second-generation biofuel when a jumbo jet takes to the sky this year powered by the oily nuts of the jatropha plant.

In another world first, the carrier also officially announced that it plans to switch at least 10% of its annual fuel needs to biofuel within five years - in a bid to become the world's most sustainable airline.

Air New Zealand used International Environment Day to announce the plans.

"Air New Zealand is absolutely committed to being at the forefront of testing environmentally sustainable fuels," chief executive Rob Fyfe said.

The carrier has been in talks with US manufacturer Boeing since last June, looking at second- and third-generation biofuels made from a variety of non-edible sources, such as jatropha and algae.

Jatropha , which is considered an invasive species in Australia, has been coined a "wonder plant" due to the high oil content of its seeds and can grow in wasteland with little need of water or fertiliser.

It is also 20 to 30% cheaper than a barrel of jet fuel - which has recently been as high as $US174 a barrel.

"Jatropha satisfies all our criteria," Fyfe said.

In August, Air New Zealand and Boeing will take a two-hour test flight from Auckland on a B747-400 with one of the plane's four Rolls Royce engines running on jatropha.

The biofuel for flight has been sourced from India and east Africa, and samples of the fuel have already been sent to Boeing and Rolls Royce for testing.

"We are very confident that the test flight will go well," Air New Zealand general manager airline operations David Morgan said.

Morgan said he did not anticipate any issues with the flight, adding that a 747 was able to fly on three engines.

Following the test flight, the biofuel will need to be certified by the aviation authorities and this could take up to three years.

"Once it is certified it can be used anywhere in the world," Air New Zealand manager group strategy Abhy Maharaj said.

Maharaj said the carrier, which was the 32nd smallest airline in the world, was "punching above its weight" and had a history of firsts in aviation.

The carrier has been working since 2004 to lower its fuel usage - but finding an alternative fuel is where the real prize is.

Air New Zealand uses around nine million barrels of oil a year, costing around $2 billion - not accounting for fuel hedging.

By using one million barrels annually of biofuel, which can be sourced from only 125,000 hectares of jatropha plantations, the airline can book significant savings and reduce its carbon emissions by 400,000 tonnes annually.

Air New Zealand's ultimate goal is to use 100 per cent biofuel.

"The goal for us in the long term is to achieve sustainable air travel to, from, and within New Zealand," Morgan said.

The jatropha-based fuel to be used in the test flight differs from the mix used by Virgin Atlantic, which undertook a 747 demonstration flight in February, with one engine fuelled by first-generation biofuel derived from coconut and palm oil.[/quote]

This will be on both free to air channel's news tonight as well (just a heads up for any interested).

Thought I'd add Air NZ's own press release: http://www.airnz.co.nz/aboutus/mediacentre...ons-05jun08.htm

Cheers
Anthony
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Postby NZ255 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:08 pm

Interesting
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Postby Alex » Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:22 pm

NZ255 wrote:
QUOTE (NZ255 @ Jun 5 2008, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Interesting

Oh really? I couldn't tell... :P :lol:

Seems they want to make it pretty sure they don't get bad press for taking biofuels from land recently converted to that purpose (checking the land's history backwards 20 years?).

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Postby Ian Warren » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:04 pm

Jump and swash Clark/Cullen other Cronies in the Gov,t , they all have enough S :poo: T to create Bio fuel fuel for a year at least , and they already crushed bloody NUTS !
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Postby jastheace » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:29 pm

being involved in the fuelling industry, we are watching what happens, the biofuel is being blended on one engine with standard jet A1 on a a380 aswell. not sure how the logistics as far as supply and delervey will go, can't contaminate a regular jet A1 with bio fuel for any other aircraft.

it seems that the future will be jet fuel, allot, if not all of the small training a/c manufactures are making "diesel" engines, that can be run on diesel. or Jet, it would seem that jet will be the main fuel used, mainly it has tougher controls and manufacturing standards.
In the ongoing battle between objects made of aluminum going hundreds of miles per hour and the ground going zero miles per hour, the ground has yet to lose.

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Postby Naki » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:38 pm

jastheace wrote:
QUOTE (jastheace @ Jun 5 2008, 10:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
it seems that the future will be jet fuel, allot, if not all of the small training a/c manufactures are making "diesel" engines, that can be run on diesel. or Jet, it would seem that jet will be the main fuel used, mainly it has tougher controls and manufacturing standards.


Theres problems here though the big manufacturer of diesel engines (Thielart) has gone bust possibly leaving all those Diamond TwinStars (& other diesel Diamond models) stuck on the ground with no spare parts. Cessna was also going to bring out a Diesel 172 but this has now been put on hold because of this.
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Postby jastheace » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:48 pm

yup, that has put a dent in the market, but from what i wsas told just last week, Cessna is still releasing their own diesel engine 172, i could be mistaken though
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Postby Yak52aholic » Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:38 pm

How would a diesel aviation engine be safety wise? You couldn't prime it or it would start because of lack of magnetos.
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Postby creator2003 » Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:33 pm

I thought we cared about children and third world countrys all they are doing is taking food right out of there mouths and feeding there planes and cars with it ,sorry kids we want to feed our cars and planes and not you...this is one sad story rice wheat you name it they need it and we dont there are many things we could be looking at more than the worlds food resources ..

good one kill people to make money biofuels sux
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Postby jastheace » Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:40 pm

Yak52aholic wrote:
QUOTE (Yak52aholic @ Jun 13 2008, 05:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How would a diesel aviation engine be safety wise? You couldn't prime it or it would start because of lack of magnetos.


it is like a diesel, but it guess it is started like a turbine engine (Basically what it is), i am not 100% certain though on how the technicals work with it.

creator2003 wrote:
QUOTE (creator2003 @ Jun 13 2008, 10:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I thought we cared about children and third world countrys all they are doing is taking food right out of there mouths and feeding there planes and cars with it ,sorry kids we want to feed our cars and planes and not you...this is one sad story rice wheat you name it they need it and we dont there are many things we could be looking at more than the worlds food resources ..

good one kill people to make money biofuels sux



i agree, there needs to be a crop that is used that does not impact on the food supply, maybe the sugar cane waste is a way to get around this, i have heard that there is some very promising developments that use the sugar cane waste and does not use food stock for fuel usage. some smart people have said that we must find a way without taking food away
In the ongoing battle between objects made of aluminum going hundreds of miles per hour and the ground going zero miles per hour, the ground has yet to lose.

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Postby SUBS17 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:04 am

creator2003 wrote:
QUOTE (creator2003 @ Jun 13 2008, 09:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I thought we cared about children and third world countrys all they are doing is taking food right out of there mouths and feeding there planes and cars with it ,sorry kids we want to feed our cars and planes and not you...this is one sad story rice wheat you name it they need it and we dont there are many things we could be looking at more than the worlds food resources ..

good one kill people to make money biofuels sux


Thats quite true the Bio fuel is a major cause of the increased food prices along with the high oil prices jet engines will run on nearly anything and I doubt Bio fuel would have much of an impact on polution its quite a small percentage and even though its Biofuel it still produces more polution than jet fuels manufacture from oil. Did any of you guys see the debate about global warming on Prime the other night this whole Global warming concept really does seem to be a bit of a con. :unsure:
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Postby creator2003 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:05 am

Well i think going back a couple of hundred of years to something my great second cousin invented would be the way of the future ,water /warmed/steam/power
it moved the world on rail and im sure with what we have learned since then it will power the cars and planes with out effecting the environment and mass killing of people ,just got to learn how to use it right and stop thinking about money money money ,if we are going biofuels lets grow weed on mass scale ,the first car ever ran on it and there are 10.000 more thing you could be making out of it aswell ..
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Postby HardCorePawn » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:47 am

But you have to burn something to turn the water to steam... believe it or not, but this is effectively what most of the power stations actually do to make electricity... even nuclear reactors do this... the heat water, produce steam, use the steam to turn turbines...

And they're not stealing food from people for the Biofuel (at least in the AirNZ case)... Jatropha is actually a weed, and it grows in like the desert or something...

As for diesels, well aside from some dodgy FADEC issues... the Diamonds seem to operate OK...
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Postby creator2003 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:02 am

Yeah i see no different peanut,wheat,what ever it is it wont keep up with the demand of those planes ,what kind of size of crops are involved in running those planes ,lots this means lands aswell ,it will cause problems in the future just like you see it happening now in some countrys already with armed guards protecting crops of wheat etc ..
i suppose only time will tell what will happen but by they it mite again be to late ..
maybe they should stop speculatling on fuel ,that would drop the fuel by $50 us a barrell and the govt of the world should stop taxing it and give in for once to the people that put them there .....there is lots of fuel out there that hasent been found yet most of which is under the oceans of our world ...
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Postby greaneyr » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:45 pm

HardCorePawn wrote:
QUOTE (HardCorePawn @ Jun 9 2008, 09:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And they're not stealing food from people for the Biofuel (at least in the AirNZ case)... Jatropha is actually a weed, and it grows in like the desert or something...


Yup. It's banned in Australia as it's classed as invasive. It grows on non-arable land, which is why ANZ are keen on it. They have stated that land use is a pivotal issue in this calculation. If it turns out that existing crop lands are being converted into Jatropha plantations in order to make this viable, ANZ will re-evaluate the whole thing. At least that's what they said on the news.

I've said it once and I'll say it again. We could run cars on electricity. That could reduce up to 50% of NZ's oil usage just like that, leaving the rest for those who can't run so easily on electricity. If demand for oil drops, then the price goes down. Of course, to run cars on electricity we actually need an electricity infrastructure that doesn't have the government asking us on a yearly basis "Can you please stop using power because we don't have enough this year?". That's a problem with or without electric transportation.
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Postby SUBS17 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:57 pm

Yeah electric cars would be the answer and the technology is there its possible to convert any car to electricity only but the oil companies influence the politicians in all countries in such an adverse way that any attempt would most likely be futile. Just recently it was mentioned that such a development was about to be undertaken between NZ, Australia and another country but I doubt it will last it will most likely wind up crushed like the EV1 in the US. Bio fuels are definately not the answer though unless they come up with a system that doesn't adversley affect the worlds poor to an extent which might cause war in some countries. NZs a good testing ground for electric car technology I think theres alot of potential for it here but it would require a strong political support for it to work its actually far more beneficial for society than taxing farmers and New Zealanders for a cows farts and creating a false stock market based on a theory that has no real evidence or 100% sceintific data. Why the greens are supporting that stuff is just bizare. BTW the government could quite easily lower the oil prices which is most likely what can happen if an electric car or 0 emmissions quota were added to the percentage of cars brought into NZ. Thats how the EV1 wound up in California was they brought in a percentage of cars made must be 0% emmisions eg 5%.
To give you an idea watch this:
Who killed the electric car
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Postby Matthew » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:18 pm

greaneyr wrote:
QUOTE (greaneyr @ Jun 9 2008, 01:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've said it once and I'll say it again. We could run cars on electricity. That could reduce up to 50% of NZ's oil usage just like that, leaving the rest for those who can't run so easily on electricity. If demand for oil drops, then the price goes down. Of course, to run cars on electricity we actually need an electricity infrastructure that doesn't have the government asking us on a yearly basis "Can you please stop using power because we don't have enough this year?". That's a problem with or without electric transportation.

Thats exactly right, and sums things up perfectly :)

If only our electricity infrastructure was more reliable, all our problems might be solved :P
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Postby NZ255 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:56 pm

creator2003 wrote:
QUOTE (creator2003 @ Jun 8 2008, 09:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I thought we cared about children and third world countrys all they are doing is taking food right out of there mouths and feeding there planes and cars with it ,sorry kids we want to feed our cars and planes and not you...this is one sad story rice wheat you name it they need it and we dont there are many things we could be looking at more than the worlds food resources ..

good one kill people to make money biofuels sux

The plant ANZ want to use is inedible, its oilily inside the seed. Even the animals won't touch the stuff
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Postby creator2003 » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:49 pm

Im not really picking on just airnz just biofuel on a mass scale ,the resource to me and alot of others is just not there unless we move familys tribes of settled lands ,then we go through all that again ...deserts sound fine but they must be someones
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Postby deaneb » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:50 pm

greaneyr wrote:
QUOTE (greaneyr @ Jun 9 2008, 01:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've said it once and I'll say it again. We could run cars on electricity. That could reduce up to 50% of NZ's oil usage just like that, leaving the rest for those who can't run so easily on electricity. If demand for oil drops, then the price goes down. Of course, to run cars on electricity we actually need an electricity infrastructure that doesn't have the government asking us on a yearly basis "Can you please stop using power because we don't have enough this year?". That's a problem with or without electric transportation.


And you would get all the electricity to power the cars how ??. I read that electric cars are not as big an energy saver as everybody thinks. The cost of production and use of batteries, not to mention the disposal of old toxic batteries may in fact use more fossil fuels than saved.
Food (or should that be fuel) for thought !! In little ole NZ I guess the only hope is lots more Hydro power or Nuke, neither of which are going to happen very fast.

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