Taking the P!ss...

[HardCorePawn]

WTH?!?!?!?

How can they possibly claim airspace?!??!?!????!?!



This is really starting to get out of hand...

[travnz]

The want a bloody say in everything. Seriously give it up.

[Anthony]

Yes this is ridiculous.
No offence or anything, but really... the airspace?
I live in Rotorua and this would affect me and my airport, so now it's personal... This might require some letter to the editor writing.

It's also fairly well know that someone, I can't remember which tribe, is or was after the lake and the airspace above it (Lake Rotorua), which the airport is situated right beside.
I don't really see why someone or a group of people should actually own a bunch of air anyway. That's just crazy.

I just can't agree with this in any way.
I think it's quite likely that their ownership and control of the airspace would end up affecting Rotorua's operations. (How does the odd plane affect the operation of a marae anyway?)
I can respect them not wanting their meeting house and kohanga reo destroyed, but this is a bit different and a bit too far.
Which should we look after: the interests of one tribe, or the interests of a whole city or even a whole country?

[Daniel]

ARHHH!!!! I live in Rotorua.
It is rather crazy! Might have to write a letter to the editor at the Daily post (our ROT newspaper)
Next thing they will claim the airport theirs!.

Cheers
Daniel

[Kelburn]

No one get racist (I'm part Maori) if you just research up on how Maori were treated (not just an overview I mean deep research - just what I pulled up on Bastion Point for history was disgusting, we were as bad as White Americans were to the black Americans we just didn't get into slavery). Maori are very spiritual so it would be based on spiritual things. They are also the sort of people that would still allow air travel overhead. Remember who was here first? who wrongly forced the land off the other?

[chickenman]

The legal principles behind this are VERY sound. It is actually the basis of New Zealand law inherited from England. The underlying principle is cu jus solum ejus est usque ad coelum which roughly translated means that whoever owns the soil owns the column of airspace above. It is only a principle but it is a principle that underpins a lot of NZ law.

This implies that customary maori land that has not been brought under Torrens land transfer system in New Zealand may have a valid claim to the airspace above it. If they didn't cede the land they can't have ceded the airspace in accordance with the british law. It is a hugely grey area that probably needs this to be done just to test the validity of the claim of trespass. There is a probablility that any land that has been used as treaty settlement land may also be subject to this provision.

Mind you given the facist government policies in place if the governement found that law allowed the claim to the airspace they would just change the law to suit. Again.

Yes, I'm part Maori but it's the common law that will be applied in this case.

[Anthony]

Yer my point was not that it's impossible for someone to own the airspace above it, but that it's a bit silly for them too be able to own the airspace above their land.

Actually funny you should mention it, but we're actually learning about the Treaty right now at school.
20 weeks on it and my opinions haven't changed, although obviusly I do acknowledge and agree that the Treaty and its proceedings are/were unjust.

I don't think that anyone's getting racist - I would be just as against this if it was a white family who owned a house and land at the end of the airport.
I don't object to the land settlement, I object to the idea that they could prevent our airport for expanding - and I would be if my example white family tried to put any limitations on airport operations.

Edit: If this is the same deal that was just covered on the news: $30 million on negotiations. Thirty million dollars spent on negotiations - that doesn't include the value of the land and settlement or anything else. What a drain on society, what a pity that there wasn't a cheaper, easier way to air the grievances and injustices (but I'll leave my personal opinions on the Treaty out of this - they're pretty controversial and I've been in lots of arguments about the Treaty before)

[Alfashark]

Sigh...

I do recall a couple of years back, a certain Maori tribe attempting to pluck transit fees from NASA due to a satellite passing overhead NZ every ? many hours...
They were responded to by the written version of a raised middle finger.

Seriously, when will this end?

[cowpatz]

Are you sure you are not confusing ownership with sovereignty?
Can you imagine the ensuing chaos if every land owner in NZ demanded a say on overflight rights? How would this airspace be defined? Would it expand with increasing altitude or remain the same cross sectional area as height increased? If so who owns the bits in between? What would be the upper limit of ownership? Is the air within that airspace also owned and if so what happens when the wind blows and that air you owned now moves next door?
We dont even want to go down this path.

Cheers
Steve

[victor_alpha_charlie]

Doesn't really matter, who wants to fly to Rotorua anyway?

It's stupid, but unfortunately in this gay PC world I can't voice my opinion without being accused as racist...

[chickenman]

QUOTE (victor_alpha_charlie @ Jun 25 2008, 07:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's stupid, but unfortunately in this gay PC world I can't voice my opinion without being accused as racist...

We don't say gay now - it's not PC

Steve - Ownership v Soverignty issue was pretty much killed by court of appeal during foreshore debate. They confirmed that without cedeing ownership there was not necessarily subject to ownership principles and law. Huge issue. Maori are soverign under the treaty but not customary land. Not the same with private land - which you don't own anyway, the crown just lets you occupy it until they need it for a nuclear power station. then you have no rights.

Jamie

[squirrel350]

If they managed to gain "ownership" of the "airspace" overhead the land they own then I sure as hell will be claiming my 780 square metres of airspace.

After all Fair is Fair and we are a so called "One Nation".

SQ

[twinstarda42]

QUOTE (HardCorePawn @ Jun 25 2008, 02:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WTH?!?!?!?

How can they possibly claim airspace?!??!?!????!?!



This is really starting to get out of hand...

their was an article on the news last year in regards to rotorua airports flight path and runway extension in regards to the local tribe, whereas the local tribe does not won't large airliners flying over the kohunga reo or the marae it is probably an attempt to try and stop large aircraft flying over as mentioned. nothing more than that.

[Peppermint]

What do they possibly have to gain by claiming that airspace?

Sounds a bit like that guy in the US selling sections of the moon!!

[Kelburn]

sorry I didn't mean racist I just wanted to make sure that the argument didn't steer that way

[travnz]

Sorry but this is bloody racist, all of this treaty cr@p. This is 2008 guys not the 1800s NZ has evolved and changed, it is home to many different races/religions/beliefs. I think a few muskets and some blankets were pretty good trade. Errrr this has kinda detracted from the airspace issue, any pilots out there? Next time you fly over the marae make sure you rev your engines.. Rant Ends....

[creator2003]

Dig down alittle and i think they will still find under a certain amount of meters is also crown land and not theres or ours ,unlike USA law where they own that block right to the core or something we do not own the land underneath the property "certain meters down "etc ..
so after a couple of meters up they dont and we dont own that ether etc...

I could be real nasty on this subject and say a whole lot on what i think but this is where ill hold my words to myself and leave it upto you to think what i mite of said

what a bunch of poppy c

[ardypilot]

QUOTE

If they managed to gain "ownership" of the "airspace" overhead the land they own then I sure as hell will be claiming my 780 square metres of airspace.[/quote]
Haha, yeah I was thinking that I might declare the airspace over my house a no-fly zone, although theres nothing better than lying in the pool in summer and spotting different jetliners as they fly overhead on their approach to 23L at Auckland... ah I guess I will let it slide this time

[towerguy]

I think this thread should stop

it has the potential to deteriorate to the point of tearing apart a good forum

my own views are probably well to the right of Genghis Khan and not going to be layed out here

and how bloody far do we go? My ancestors were Scots and Irish - do I get the Highlands and Ireland back? or even further back they loped across Africa - maybe I get real estate and oil rights? - or further back still - I'm a direct descendant of Gondgwanaland so does the whole bloody earth belong to me?!!!

its 2008 - build a bridge and get over it!!!!

[HardCorePawn]

QUOTE (Kelburn @ Jun 25 2008, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Remember who was here first? who wrongly forced the land off the other?

First of all, I'll just drop in the fact that I am 1/16th Maori... so you can keep the racism card in your pocket... This has nothing to do with racism, and everything to do with acknowledging the past, but leaving it there.

Define wrongly forced off the land? If you mean, 'pwned' by a greater power then yes, the maori were subjugated by an overwhelming force... it is unfortunate, but that is the way things were done in those days... kind of like the way they used to ship people to the other side of the world for stealing a loaf of bread. Look at Europe, ownership of large chunks of Europe changed hands several times over the course of history...

Unfortunately, NZ has gone so PC-mad, that we now believe that we can right these historic wrongs... and in doing so, are inconveniencing and (possibly) wronging loads of innocent people now... 2 wrongs == right? Israel vs. Palestine comes to mind... and look how that has turned out.

This country is moving backwards at a rate of knots, because those at the helm seem more concerned about living in the past, rather than moving forward toward the future...

Perhaps the government should just subsidise the purchase of some of these...