Code Share

[happytraveller]

Today's rant, code share.

If I went into New World and paid for Nescafe coffee and they gave me (cheap) budget unlabelled coffee then I would feel ripped off. Also, if they were trying to sell unlabelled coffee as Nescafe then it would be misrepresentation, so would be illegal. You would not be getting the goods that you had paid for. But airlines being airlines make their own rules. With code shares, I can buy a ticket on a flight with my favourite quality airline (mentioning no names here) but end up sitting on an aircraft operated by a far less good airline and offering far less service. So I have paid for a quality service on airline A, but end up on airline B with few services. To make matters worse, Airline A will give the flight its own flight number, so pretend that it is actually a flight on its own aircraft.

In the rest of the world, this sort of practice would be not allowed, as you are not getting what you paid for.

Also, what benefits do code shares actually offer the passenger. If you fly a lot then you will know that the 'seamless connections' that Star Alliance offers often do not work. Things like collecting boarding passes on connecting flights just do not work. How many times have you been told that you must get the boarding card for the next flight when you arrive, despite that it is on another airline in the same alliance? Rather than offering an increased choice of flights and benefits, code sharing actually seems to reduce both the choice of flights and the choice of tickets. And even things like air miles seem to be messed up too, with different airlines in the same alliance applying their own rules for earning and redeeming miles. And how often have you heard that airline A cannot get into the system of airline B to make a reservation, despite them being in the same alliance?

So all in all, my experience of code shares is that they are a real con. When I buy a ticket to fly on airline A, I do not want to find that I am actually flying on airline B, which with a flight number, pretends to be airline A.

To me, it seems that airline alliances and code shares just reduce the choice for us passengers, and reduce competition. Few benefits, but lots of disadvantages. Just think if One World was to join Star Alliance, how much competition would be left?

smooth landings.

[benwynn]

I think you're taking it a bit out of context. The way I'm looking at your comparison, is that you'd like to buy Wonderwhite Coffee, but they only make bread. If your favourite/preferred airline doesn't operate a particular route, you're obviously going to have to compromise in some way.

On any codeshares that I've been on, it's clearly stated the airline and aircraft type that will be operating that flight under a codeshare flight number. To me/ any aviation enthusiast I would think, would be enough to help make their decision on whether or not they fly that route.

I think it's unfair to blame the airline when codeshare is a simple part of air travel. Nearly every single airline does it, because it cuts costs and increases the number of seats available to travellers. Such as when NZ dropped AKL-SIN, they began SQ codeshares with an increased number of flights and the opportunity for more.

I've flown several Star Alliance connections with no problems, so I cannot really comment on the troubles you've had with receiving boarding passes and what not. However, codeshare does indeed reduce the number of options for a lot of people, but since when has that stopped the airlines? If you need to go somewhere and the only flight is at 12am, you'll leave on that flight.

In terms of miles etc, all codeshare flights will earn the exact same number of miles as you would have flying that carrier. If you booked an el cheapo NZ ticket and you end up flying on a Thai Airways codeshare, don't expect to earn miles; because your AirNZ ticket didn't in the first place. As for redemption, of course every airline has their own redemption policies. Just like some only allow you to redeem for the highest economy fare class etc. That's an airline policy, and so be it.

Since deregulation of the airline industry, the aim of Star Alliance, OneWorld etc was to provide customers with an extensive route network to what they had available in terms of aircraft and staffing. Obviously through bilateral government agreements etc, it may not have been possible for some airlines to operate particular routes into countries, or only one or two flights a week/day. Codeshare has also allowed this to happen.

Theres still airlines left without Alliances, like Emirates etc. Theres also a very low chance of OneWorld merging into Star Alliance, I'd say its very very slim myself. There will continue to be plenty of competition left regardless of the alliance.

At the end of the day, just don't book your flights as a damn codeshare! It's really not that difficult. I'm sorry if you're the type to call your travel agent and allow them to do it, but its very very easy to work out where you're going, what airlines fly there, and make a comparison of airlines and aircraft types before booking your flight. If you want to earn miles or whatever, then you're going to have to suck it up, because not every airline in the world is an NZ, SQ or TG. YOU can make the choice, the airline doesn't enter your credit card details itself.

[spongebob206]

Sorry benwynn

I'm with Happytraveller on this one.

You should receive the service you have paid for and expect from your ticket.

You should know whom you are on. If it states A, then A it should be.

[benwynn]

It does state the airline though.

Eg.

[Ian Warren]

11 /12 hour flight happy with window seat , don,t need to serve me nothing .. booked WINDOW and to get a mid section with people watching movies ! now that pissed me off ! always fly windows , so with that i come in the sneaky way .. 3/4 hours in 777 front office , and pretty Malaysian girls , worth it .

[victor_alpha_charlie]

QUOTE (spongebob206 @ Nov 14 2010, 04:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry benwynn

I'm with Happytraveller on this one.

You should receive the service you have paid for and expect from your ticket.

You should know whom you are on. If it states A, then A it should be.

I'm with benwynn. If you look at your ticket, it will mention what airline operates the flight you are on. It's not as if you pay for a business class ANZ ticket across the tasman, are told you will be in business class on an A320 and then end up down the back of a Pacblue 737. Airlines that codeshare do so because it's not viable for them to operate that particluar route themselves. QF47 between SYD and WLG also has a BA flight number, but you can't possibly expect BA to fly a service from Sydney to Wellington? You make it sound like the airlines suprise you and rip you off, when this is far from the truth.


happytraveller have you considered changing your forum username? Most of the posts you make are complaining about experiences you have had with airlines, so it gives me the impression you're anything but.

[happytraveller]

Sorry if the posts in this section are complaining ones, but I fly a lot and it just seems that the service is getting worse and worse. Customer service seems to have almost disappeared, and airports are far from fun now with security checks, queues and overcrowding. I would like to write some positive posts, but so many flights now are with some form of problem. Flying used to be fun and also hassle free, it has been a long time since I had a flight that I enjoyed from start (pre check-in) to finish.

When an airline uses a code share and then uses its own flight number for that flight, then I consider that it is misrepresentation. I am paying to fly on airline A, but end up on airline B, which has airlines A flight number.

Also my experience of Star Alliance and its 'seamless connections' is that they are far from seamless.

But debate is always good. Maybe I am alone with my views on this, however if I pay for a flight on airline A then I want to fly on airline A.

smooth landings.
from

a sometimes unhappy traveller.

[benwynn]

Then why book it when it says OPERATED BY AIR PACIFIC? Im sorry to sound so stressed, but you make it sound as if its completely hidden; you check-in, get your boarding pass, arrive at the gate and for some reason theres a Air Pacific aircraft at your gate.

You're not paying to fly on Airline A, you're paying to fly on Airline B. Airline A merely acts as the 'travel agent', making their route network look a lot bigger etc. Precisely the point of codeshares is to use several different flight numbers, as its a shared route.

VAC brings up a perfectly example. You hope on the British Airways website, and you'd like to book a flight from Brisbane to Auckland. Well, its pretty bloody obvious that British Airways would not operate that route, but regardless you get on the website and punch in the details. Step one complete; you made the choice of airline merely by habit loyalty, rather than researching viable options.

You program in the details, and it comes up with BA4851. Next to the flight number is a blue triangle. Strange, a long flight number and a blue triangle, stating in the key CODESHARED FLIGHT. So you click on the flight info, and sure enough it comes up with OPERATED BY QANTAS AIRWAYS LTD.

Regardless, its got a British Airways flight number so the website must be wrong, they're just trying to trick me or something. I'll just book the flight anyway.



More than anything, codeshares are designed to help travellers with several connections over a long distance eg, LHR-WLG. LHR-HKG-SYD on BA Metal, before jumping on a QF 734 to Wellington. People tend to do this due to FF loyalty programs, seemless transfers (and don't bother telling me they aren't, because picking you bag up and carrying it to the domestic terminal is not seemless) and a generally easier travel experience.

[Syncop8r]

.

[Ian Warren]

Pruning , arr the love off a concrete garden and your little fluffy thing you cant book on those long cat napping flights , Pruning or Purring or ....

I would love to have HT 'Happy,s' experiences shared , its good to debate , and a lesson for all ... signed 'PRPruned '

[happytraveller]

Yes, I am surprised that censorship has kicked in on this topic, as debate is always good to hear views both for and against.

I still stand by my point, that airlines should not pretend to operate flights using their own flight numbers on other carriers aircraft, when it is not their own aircraft which operates those flights.

But hey, the topic has made people think, and I have made my point. It is good to have a forum with some spice in it!!.

Smooth landings.

[IslandBoy77]

I wouldn't call it censorship. With freedom comes responsibility. A person is never free to say whatever they think, nor should they be. If the admin deems any remark to be inflammatory or out of line, editing it is not censorship but restoring the principle of speech with responsibility - before license takes over and things go pear-shaped. I didn't think the edited comment was particularly bad, but I can see that it was easily the start of something unpleasant, so fully agree with it's removal.

Discussion is good - knowing when discussion is moving from that to argy-bargy and acrimony is a finely-trodden line...

[cowpatz]

The information on code sharing is certainly a lot better now than when they first started. A friend once tried to book on a Air NZ flight to Nagoya in Japan and was told the flight was full. He then tried Japan airlines and they had plenty of seats and had a flight departing at the same time. Imagine his surprise when he turned up to find the Air NZ aircraft there. Fortunately the code share arrangements work differently now with time/booking phased seat release available. Instead of each airline operating a fixed number of seats per aircraft there is now the ability to trade.
The booking experience can certainly be confusing. A regular air traveler will probably be aware of a code share arrangement but the inexperienced or elderly may well not. They would not expect to know which airline goes where.
Booking online can be a frustrating experience with code shares not that clearly defined.
What does code share or operated, for that matter, mean to the average person on the street?
I am in agreement that the flight number should be the actual sector operators flight number and not a made up flight number by the code sharing airline.
Boarding can also be an issue with a myriad of flight numbers for the same flight and this can be missed on departure boards. In fact some have the same flight shown but it cycles slowly thru the flight numbers for the same flight.
The actual flight number being looked for can easily be missed.
By all means use alliance's etc and show the connections available. Just list the operator and their flight number clearly on the ticket and boarding pass.

[Syncop8r]

Well, I just didn't like the sarcasm of benwynn's post and I don't think happytraveller totally deserved it.
Pity that didn't get edited out.

[benwynn]

There was no sarcasm in my response, merely debate.

[Ian Warren]

QUOTE (Syncop8r @ Nov 16 2010, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pity that didn't get edited out.

Don,t go there

QUOTE (benwynn @ Nov 16 2010, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There was no sarcasm in my response, merely debate.

Debate it was and interesting , guess i need to fly a lot more, Ben

Appears to me 'Happy' "HT" really gets around , his photo time .. aiming from all over the world is a pleasure , hence - how dose he get to these spots , as a 'Happy Traveller' , I really do not want 'HT' to deprive us with these superb photos and is a .. Our NZFF Photo World Wide ambassador .

[Syncop8r]

QUOTE (benwynn @ Nov 15 2010, 09:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You program in the details, and it comes up with BA4851. Next to the flight number is a blue triangle. Strange, a long flight number and a blue triangle, stating in the key CODESHARED FLIGHT. So you click on the flight info, and sure enough it comes up with OPERATED BY QANTAS AIRWAYS LTD.

Regardless, its got a British Airways flight number so the website must be wrong, they're just trying to trick me or something. I'll just book the flight anyway.

[benwynn]

Hi All,

To me, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems myself, Happytraveller, VAC etc are all engaging in merely a forum-style debate. We all, at least myself, seem to be happy with the input of all the parties and like most, I enjoy debate.

However, if you do not wish to engage in the debate or add any relevant information, please do not flame or fuel the fire. There is really no need to go there.

[victor_alpha_charlie]

Lololololol I love this forum.

[ZK-MAT]

I'm just sitting here wanting my Nescafe served in a Starbucks cup. Flying ANZ to NZCH on Sunday. Hope I don't end up going Qantas, I'll be back home before I could say Tie Me Kangaroo Down Sport!!!