Approach into NZQN

[ilovetofly]

I need some help from my Kiwi sim pilots about approaches into NZQN (Queenstown).
First of all, I down-loaded the differet approaches fron the NZ Aviation web site.
First question: Is the Slope Hill VOR/DME correctly located in FS9? The reason I'm asking is that according to the VOR/DME A chart I should be approaching SH at a hdg of 218* and arrive at an altitude of 4700'. Then I would make a small turn to 212* and be lined up on RWY 23. But, in the PMDG 737-800 and crossing the SH VOR, the RWY is way off to my left and I need to turn left almost 90* then come back all the while trying to descend 3200' in a distance of two miles. So what is the long & Lat of Slope Hill so I can verify the location in FS9? And the rate of descent seems way too steep with an approach speed of 145knts.

Possibly this would not be the correct approach for the 738. I know that Qantas does fly the 738 into NZQN, so it is possible.

Maybe I should use the RNAV (RNP) approaches for Queenstown instead. So I really would appreciate some clue here as this is one of the most, if not the most, favorite city I've had the pleasure of visiting. I'm using Snowman's scenery for this airport.

One other question: on the glide path portion of the chart (RNAV), there appears two sets of numbers, one in bold and preceded by the letters GP, and the other below, e.g. GP 3040. Can some one please explain the meaning?
(1830)

Thank you for your help.
Jim D.
USA
KSJC

[deeknow]

Hey Jim. Welcome to the virtual New Zealand airspace, I'm sure you'll enjoy flying here. And you've certainly picked some challenging terrain at Queenstown

QUOTE (ilovetofly @ Jan 1 2011, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First question: Is the Slope Hill VOR/DME correctly located in FS9?

Yes it is correctly placed as far as I know, and as you've noticed is offset from the runway as you follow in on the 218* radial

I suggest you take a look at the excellent tutorial the local VATSIM chapter VATNZ have published on the VOR/DME approach into Queenstown, check out the following and do be sure to watch the video embeded at the bottom of the page:
http://www.vatnz.net/cms/index.php?option=...&Itemid=186

In a nutshell you approach on 218* tracking to the VOR and either

• break off early and do a direct visual approach for RWY23
• or track overhead the VOR and do a 270* right hand turn to catch the runway
• or pass over the VOR and do a figuire of eight pattern to suit landing on either RWY23 or RWY05.

See the "Aerodrome 3" plate on the following page for the figuire-of-8:
http://www.vatnz.net/cms/index.php?option=...k=ap&id=105

QUOTE (ilovetofly @ Jan 1 2011, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Possibly this would not be the correct approach for the 738. I know that Qantas does fly the 738 into NZQN, so it is possible.

Qantas do fly the RNAV approaches there, as Air New Zealand do in their 733's. The turbo-props tend to fly the VOR/DME approaches. The 737s can land there on the VOR/DME visual approaches too, I've seen a great video of an AirNZ 733 coming in low over the Cardrona saddle and taking the first option above to cut left and right before the VOR to land direct into RWY23

[ilovetofly]

Hi Dean,
Thanks for the reply.
I'm not new to flying in NZ, been doing that for a few years now, especially after visiting there on vacation some 6-8 years ago, but never flying in with the 737-800, especially to Queenstown. I probably have all of Snowman's scenerys, + Robin Corn's Real NZ Wanaka package, (fly a lot of warbirds from Wanaka), Roads & Rivers of NZ and other sceneries by others. So NZ, Au by VOZ, Alaska and some parts of the USA are favorites of mine.

I looked at the site you recommended, but don't see a link to the video. I see it mentioned at the bottom of the page, but no link. Thinking I may need to register at VATNZ to see it, I tried to register but the registration page requires a VATNZ member number and rating before accepting my registration. Don't know how I can supply that when I'm attempting to register. But I will read the tutorials and see if I can get it down. I did one good landing on 05 with the 738 but haven't accomplished it on 23 yet. I'd like to view the video if I can find the link.

Thanks again for the help.

Jim D.
USA
KSJC

[ZK-MAT]

Ummm, it's weird, the video was there yesterday and I watched it, today I am getting the "you need flash player" link, which even after following still does not display the video....

[ilovetofly]

BTW, thanks for clearing up the fact that these must be circling approaches as this is not really clear on some of the approach plates for QN. I'm still wondering about the meaning of two thing on the chart. 1st, on the VOR/DME A chart as well as on the others, in the hatched out areas there are numbers and the letters SFC. Are these restricted areas or alt limitations? And SFC refers to????. I think I've seen it before, but forgot the meaning.

2nd, on the RNAV RWY 23 descent portion of the chart for instance, are numbers GP 2570 and below it the number (2149). I'm lost as to their significance.

Thanks again for the help.

Jim D.

[deeknow]

QUOTE (ilovetofly @ Jan 2 2011, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm still wondering about the meaning of two thing on the chart. 1st, on the VOR/DME A chart as well as on the others, in the hatched out areas there are numbers and the letters SFC. Are these restricted areas or alt limitations? And SFC refers to????... 2nd, on the RNAV RWY 23 descent portion of the chart for instance, are numbers GP 2570 and below it the number (2149). I'm lost as to their significance

Hey Jim, check out the following post in the forums at VATNZ:
http://www.vatnz.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9967#p9967

In case you cant access the forum, here's what Leon Gibbs one of our local VATSIM staff has to say about it:

QUOTE

OK the Gxxx areas are General Aviation Areas and traffic can be operating in those areas without reference to controlling authority. This doesn't really apply to us as those areas are mainly used for Balloons and Other recreational airborne activities. The SFC-5500ft shows their vertical extent (From the surface to 5500ft above sea level). You second questions GP3360/(2189). I can't find where you found this but if you go 3360 minus QN airport elevation 1171ft = 2189ft so YES the numbers in brackets are AGL not AMSL.[/quote]

btw - weird about that video, looks like its been pulled for some reason, was playing ok for me last night

[cowpatz]

QUOTE (ilovetofly @ Jan 6 2011, 09:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

BTW, thanks for clearing up the fact that these must be circling approaches as this is not really clear on some of the approach plates for QN. I'm still wondering about the meaning of two thing on the chart. 1st, on the VOR/DME A chart as well as on the others, in the hatched out areas there are numbers and the letters SFC. Are these restricted areas or alt limitations? And SFC refers to????. I think I've seen it before, but forgot the meaning.

2nd, on the RNAV RWY 23 descent portion of the chart for instance, are numbers GP 2570 and below it the number (2149). I'm lost as to their significance.

Thanks again for the help.

Jim D.

I have sent an email to the author of the clip to try and sort out the video issue. Hopefully we can put it in the pilots reference section of VATNZ.G771 and G772 are glider flying areas (well hang gliders and paraponts mainly). SFC = surface and the number above is the top of the glider flying area. So G772 goes from the surface to 3000ft.The VOR approaches are quite tricky as the minima is relatively high. For example at the VOR/DME ALFA missed approach point you will be 3529 ft above the ground but less than 2 miles from the runway.How you attack this approach depends largely on the cloud base and visibility. If you get visual very early in the approach and the runway in use is 23 then as soon as you pass over the Crown range turn sharp left and descend as quickly as possible. Make sure you have the aircraft appropriately configured (Gear down and plenty of flap) or you just cannot achieve the descent gradient required. Head towards the Kawerau river, where it exits the Gibbston valley, staying as close in to the Crown range as you can. As you descend towards it you will see a small hill on your right. This is Mt Morvin (i think it's called). Basically you want to track along the Kawerau river (or close to it) keeping the hill on your right. It will be close and you will be below the top of it if you are on the correct profile.If you get visual very late in the approach then you will need to turn right and initially track towards Coronet peak, then Arrowtown, circling around Lake Hayes, before picking up the Kawerau river as described previously. Note the Max circling speed is 160 kts. If 05 is in use then when visual you will need to cross over the airfield and circle around Kelvin Heights (Deer park) then out over Lake Wakatipu then back up the Frankton arm. Keep as far left as possible up the Frankton arm as this will make alignment with the runway easier.The Charlie approach is practically impossible to land from straight in for 05. At 10 DME you will need to lose 5000 ft which means a dangerously high descent rate. It is better to fly to Slope Hill and then turn right back across the airfield and back around the deer park and back up Frankton Arm. Runway 23 is easier as it is the same as for landing on 23 as described above.As for the RNAV approaches GP 2570 means Glidepath 2570 feet. In other words you should cross the associated waypoint at this altitude (whats on yr altimeter with the correct QNH set). The number in brackets is the height the aircraft will be above the ground.So in your example you should cross the waypoint at 2570 ft indicated (above sea level)and you will be 2149 ft above the ground.Queenstown is a very challenging airfield. The non RNAV approaches have very high minimas to take into account the hostile nature of the surrounding terrain. Notice that you need 5 km visibility for these approaches and Queenstown is not available for night operations.

Google map

[ilovetofly]

Thanks again for all the suggestions people. All the info has been a big help. I'll keep subscribed to the thread so when the video is available again I'll be able to have a look.

Well I'll keep practicing the approaches til I get it down. One of the most challanging issues is cloud cover. Without visibility it's almost, if not, impossible or way too dangerous.

Jim D.

[ilovetofly]

QUOTE (ilovetofly @ Jan 1 2011, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks again for all the suggestions people. All the info has been a big help. I'll keep subscribed to the thread so when the video is available again I'll be able to have a look.

Well I'll keep practicing the approaches til I get it down. One of the most challanging issues is cloud cover. Without visibility it's almost, if not, impossible or way too dangerous.

Jim D.

Well I accomplished the first correct approach into QN on RWY 05. Set up the PMDG 738 @8200' about 20nm out on a heading of 032. @ 15nm out set a RoD of 1400' p/m, @3100' made the loop around the mountain on the right and descending to about 1500', lined up on the runway and hit the numbers right on. I was a little fast so it took nearly the entire RWY before stopping. I followed the RNAV/RNP for RWY 05. Had some cloud cover and didn't see the RWY until on final after circling the mountain.

I hope this just wasn't a fluk, but I'll continue practicing then work on the approach/landing on RWY 23. I couldn't have done it with out the help provided here. It's a good feelling to accomplish this.

Thanks again

Jim D.
USA
KSJC

[cowpatz]

Try here for updated video link.

[ilovetofly]

QUOTE (cowpatz @ Jan 4 2011, 11:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try here for updated video link.

Thank you for the link. I've attempted the approach for RWY 23 in low cloud cover and didn't make it. Killed everyone on board. I need to update the Navigraph file. Or put in my own fixes for the approach in the FMC.
Probably I should prctice this in clear weather first.

Jim D.

p.s. While I have the email notification checked, I haven't received any. What could be wrong?