Dam Buster training in Milford Sound

[Ian Warren]

[Charl]

I found one more on Fatso, we may have to start a new thread when these arrive:



EDIT: And of course, never forget YouTube.
Here's a bunch of guys that have a spare aircraft, some time, and a bit of Barnes Wallis-style can-do

[Naki]

That You-tube clip was cool...good old Buffalo Airways

[scaber]

Great video, most interesting. Not sure that I would be game to fly at 60 feet like that (unless I was coming in to land of course!)

[Ian Warren]

Sweet Charl , I really do like that Utube vid , i have many books here on the routes taken - the reasons/cause for loss off crew , ole Pete Jackson may have a source and aircrews for his movie
One DVD i don't have is Dambusters 'the true story' must dig that one up .

[Adamski]

I'll be interested to know whether "The Real Story" is, in fact, the "real" story.

A few years back, I watched a documentary (maybe it was this one?) that claimed the whole exercise was merely a misguided publicity/morale booster for the RAF and had little or no strategic impact - regardless of the "apparent" damage. As with many "controversial" RAF raids, civilian deaths were high - many of which were prisoners in forced labour in the factories that were flooded.

When you look at other sources of information about raids on Dresden - right through to even the (pathetic) Vulcan bombings of the Falklands, you can see evidence of massive RAF propaganda and media "spin". Read Sharky Ward's "Harriers at War" and you'll see it again.

Don't get me wrong - there's always a place for propaganda and morale-boosting tricks *during the conflict* - but, years later, you should be able to dispel the myths and separate fact from fiction.

The sad fact is that wartime is no different to peacetime. People build empires/reputations within the armed forces - and are prepared to go to great lengths to advance themselves or cover up their mistakes/inadequacies. To see "humanity" in action within the RAF, another great read is "Spitfire Women" (also a good documentary now I think) - where the RAF's attitude to these incredibly skilled/brave women was positively neanderthal.

Also - don't get me wrong ... you can't argue with the bravery of the aircrews involved in the raid ... and I do like the RAF (honest!!!).

[Splitpin]

Well said...we are all victims to the spin doctors, at all levels, but Im not sure about this one.
Sharky Wards book is a must read for anyone interested in air combat....great book...no holds barred.
The Vulcan raid highlights your main point very well....what a waste of time and money, why not just fly over towing a flag. The harriers were there , ready, and capable of doing the same and more.

Food for thought Adam....should get all the historians and conspiracy theorists out of the woodwork.

[Ian Warren]

QUOTE (Adamski @ Jun 29 2011,2:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A few years back, I watched a documentary (maybe it was this one?) that claimed the whole exercise was merely a misguided publicity/morale booster for the RAF and had little or no strategic impact - regardless of the "apparent" damage. As with many "controversial" RAF raids, civilian deaths were high - many of which were prisoners in forced labour in the factories that were flooded.

Exactly what i have read 'no strategic impact' really at all , but it change the way off thinking protecting other targets thereby moving men and material and really taken them out off the front line so maybe was strategic .

As for your Vulcan raid .. all that way just to plop one bomb outta the twenty one possible ? arr 1982 so long ago .

[Splitpin]

This may be of interest, but Im sure the debate will go on.....

http://living.scotsman.com/features/Men-wh...e-of.2417123.jp

[Ian Warren]

No mention of 'niger' there , but as pre mentioned have detailed account , when were the loss's occured , mention a moral fumble could said about the many missions , Dresden one would have be up at the top off the list , course Hiroshima and Nagasaki tops , course total war and that works both ways .

[Adamski]

I love the wonderful U-turn "Bomber" Harris makes - blowing his own trumpet after the raid, but describing the idea as "utter tripe" when it was first proposed!

Great article/link Marty. I think we're on safer ground talking about the (measurable) effects of strategic bombing - but when we start talking about the *morality* of war (@Ian) then we're in trouble.

My (very condensed) view is that not enough energy/options are ever employed to prevent war ... but once the gloves are off and you "let loose the dogs of war" then morality goes out of the window - and you have to let the dogs do their stuff. All war is immoral. But then so is cruelty, repression, torture, ethnic cleansing ... I dunno ... back to my screenshots

[Ian Warren]

Back to Screenshots , I agree - a lot safer and all the ex waring nations love to join us in their events , nothing like following history

[Charl]

Yes I think we're all on the same page, probably.
Here's a bit of trivia:
In 1977, Article 56 of the Protocol I amendment to the Geneva Conventions, outlawed attacks on dams "if such attack may cause the release of dangerous forces from the works or installations and consequent severe losses among the civilian population".

Sorry to highjack you Adam, great when a thread starts a train of thought though.
Screenshot? Here's a genuine Mohne Dam 60 ft flyover!

[Adamski]

QUOTE (Charl @ Jun 29 2011,4:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to highjack you Adam, great when a thread starts a train of thought though.
Screenshot? Here's a genuine Mohne Dam 60 ft flyover!

I probably highjacked it myself! It's a good thread though - and some interesting screenshots have come out of it!

EDIT: I wonder whether the Geneva Convention ruling was a direct result of those attacks. Have there been any other attacks on dams?

[Ian Warren]

Charl , and sure Adam would agree very relevant , it is a very interesting subject , It is going to be interesting to see our New Zealand film maker portrait's it , I havnt been to the movies for a hundred years , well last century at lease

[Adamski]

QUOTE (Ian Warren @ Jun 29 2011,4:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I havnt been to the movies for a hundred years , well last century at lease

Let me be the first to say this .... "Ian, I think you should get out more!"

I must admit I watch a LOT of movies on DVD (local rental shop $1 a throw) ... but I still treat myself once in a while to the full-blown wide-screen experience - where even an average film looks *great*!

[Charl]

QUOTE (Ian Warren @ Jun 29 2011,4:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... It is going to be interesting to see our New Zealand film maker portrait's it , I havnt been to the movies for a hundred years , well last century at lease

Sir PJ signed on to that one in 2006! it's certainly been a while in the making, I'd also go though.
Adam the Protocol was just by way of clarification of the early 1949 Convention.
It also prohibits attacks on nuclear power stations and places of worship.
Everyone's ratified it, except the following countries:
United States, Israel, Iran, Pakistan, and Turkey

[Splitpin]

QUOTE (Ian Warren @ Jun 29 2011,3:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Back to Screenshots , I agree - a lot safer and all the ex waring nations love to join us in their events , nothing like following history

I agree Ian....ive had this debate with my parents for years....too them my interest (bordering on obsession)makes me a war monger, which Im not....my interest is in the technology, and history.....i know that the technology was, and is developed for a specific reason....but so are cars, and Im sure they kill more people than military aircraft have.

Anyway.....back to the screens......

QUOTE (Charl @ Jun 29 2011,5:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sir PJ signed on to that one in 2006! it's certainly been a while in the making, I'd also go though.
Adam the Protocol was just by way of clarification of the early 1949 Convention.
It also prohibits attacks on nuclear power stations and places of worship.
Everyone's ratified it, except the following countries:
United States, Israel, Iran, Pakistan, and Turkey

Gosh...what a surprise....3 out of that five could be , and Im sure will be ,responsible for the end of civilization as we know it.....beam me up scotty, theres nothing down here worth looking at.

[Charl]

QUOTE (Ian Warren @ Jun 29 2011,1:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...One DVD i don't have is Dambusters 'the true story' must dig that one up

I just spent an hour watching this, pretty good really, it cuts archival footage with that from the 1955 film.
That's so long ago, it looks authentic!
It tells the story as I understand it, but what grabbed me was Sir Barnes Wallace...a design genius.
I'd forgotten the amazing geodetic rib structure in the Wellington was his.
And his later, visionary, supersonic variable-sweep Swallow is amazing.



But get this: because he never got over the loss of dambuster crews, he insisted that all testing be done by large-scale radio control planes.
Sixty five years ago, he was doing UAV's!

[Ian Warren]

Have a few photos off this , a book published in 1974 , an entire chapter on Barnes,y .. from the R100 to the above .