Asiana Boeing 777 Crashes at San Fran

[cowpatz]

Interesting how last night's 'Mayday' programme covered the Korean 747 Cargo crash out of Stanstead. The Captains IRU failed and he kept banking until they hit the deck with 90 degrees of bank. His ADI was showing level whilst the standby and First Officer's ADIs operated normally. Interestingly the F/O did nothing, preferring to die instead of challenging or taking control. This accident was the fifth in a series of accidents that almost revoked their operating certificate into Europe and the US. They underwent a massive change in their training methodology and this required many expats to get involved. Thousands of years of culture is hard to change. This letter has been floating around and seems to suggest that the problem is either still around or has resurfaced.

This is a letter from a retired training instructor of Asiana Airlines.


"After I retired from UAL as a Standards Captain on the 400, I got a job as a simulator instructor working for Alteon (a Boeing subsidiary) at Asiana. When I first got there, I was shocked and surprised by the lack of basic piloting skills shown by most of the pilots. It is not a normal situation with normal progression from new hire, right seat, left seat taking a decade or two. One big difference is that ex-military pilots are given super-seniority and progress to the left seat much faster. Compared to the US, they also upgrade fairly rapidly because of the phenomenal growth by all Asian air carriers. By the way, after about six months at Asiana, I was moved over to KAL and found them to be identical.. The only difference was the color of the uniforms and airplanes. I worked in Korea for 5 long years and although I found most of the people to be very pleasant, it’s a minefield of a work environment ... for them and for us expats.
One of the first things I learned was that the pilots kept a web-site and reported on every training session. I don’t think this was officially sanctioned by the company, but after one or two simulator periods, a database was building on me (and everyone else) that told them exactly how I ran the sessions, what to expect on checks, and what to look out for. For example; I used to open an aft cargo door at 100 knots to get them to initiate an RTO and I would brief them on it during the briefing. This was on the B-737 NG. Many of the new captains were coming off the 777 or B744 and they were used to the Master Caution System being inhibited at 80 kts. Well, for the first few days after I started that, EVERYONE rejected the takeoff. Then, all of a sudden they all “got itâ€￾ and continued the takeoff (in accordance with their manuals). The word had gotten out; I figured it was an overall PLUS for the training program.
We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers. KAL has one center and Asiana has another.. When I was there (2003-2008) we had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia. Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so they did hire some instructors from there.
This solution has only been partially successful but still faces ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were fired because they tried to enforce “normalâ€￾ standards of performance. By normal standards, I would include being able to master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach with 10 knot crosswind and the weather CAVU. I am not kidding when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason. Like this SFO Asiana crew, it didn’t‚ compute that you needed to be a 1000’ AGL at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min.

After 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my name to their training and sometimes if I just couldn’t pass someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them. I usually busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me built. I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it turned out he was the a high-ranking captain who was the Chief Line Check pilot on the fleet I was teaching on. I found out on my next monthly trip home that KAL was not going to renew my Visa. The crew I failed was given another check and continued a fly while talking about how unfair Captain Brown was.

Any of you Boeing glass-cockpit guys will know what I mean when I describe these events. I gave them a VOR approach with an 15 mile arc from the IAF. By the way, KAL dictated the profiles for all sessions and we just administered them. This captain requested two turns in holding at the IAF to get set up for the approach. When he finally got his nerve up, he requested “Radar Vectorsâ€￾ to final. He could have just said he was ready for the approach and I would have cleared him to the IAF and then “cleared for the approachâ€￾ and he could have selected “Exit Holdâ€￾ and been on his way. He was already in LNAV/VNAV PATH. So, I gave him vectors to final with a 30 degree intercept. Eah time he failed to “extend the FAFâ€￾ so he couldn’t understand why it would not intercept the LNAV magenta line when he punched LNAV and VNAV. He made three approaches and three missed approaches before he figured out that his active waypoint was “Hold at XYZ.â€￾ Every time he punched LNAV, it would try to go back to the IAF .... just like it was supposed to do. Since it was a check, I was not allowed (by their own rules) to offer him any help. That was just one of about half dozen major errors I documented in his UNSAT paperwork. He also failed to put in ANY aileron on takeoff with a 30-knot direct crosswind (again, the weather was dictated by KAL).
This Asiana SFO accident makes me sick and while I am surprised there are not more, I expect that there will be many more of the same type accidents in the future unless some drastic steps are taken [to teach third world pilots basic flying]. They are already required to hire a certain percentage of expats to try to ingrain more flying expertise in them, but more likely, they will eventually be fired too. One of the best trainees I ever had was a Korean/American (he grew up and went to school in the USA) who flew C-141s in the USAF. When he got out, he moved back to Korea and got hired by KAL. I met him when I gave him some training and a check on the B-737 and of course, he breezed through the training. I give him annual PCs for a few years and he was always a good pilot. Then, he got involved with trying to start a pilots union and when they tired to enforce some sort of duty rigs on international flights, he was fired after being arrested and JAILED!
Koreans are very very bright and smart so I was puzzled by their inability to fly an aeroplane well. They would show up on Day 1 of training (an hour before the scheduled briefing time, in a 3-piece suit, and shined shoes) with the entire contents of the FCOM and Flight Manual totally memorized. But, putting that information to actual use was many times impossible. Crosswind landings are also an unsolvable puzzle for most of them. I never did figure it out completely, but I think I did uncover a few clues. Here is my best guess. First off, their educational system emphasizes ROTE memorization from the first day of school as little kids. As you know, that is the lowest form of learning. so they act like robots. They are also taught to NEVER challenge authority and in spite of the flight training heavily emphasizing CRM, never-challenge-authority still exists either on the surface or very subtly. You just can’t change 3000 years of culture.
The other thing that I think plays an important role is the fact that there is virtually NO civil aircraft flying in Korea. It’s actually illegal to own a Cessna-152 and just go learn to fly. Ultra-lights and Powered Hang Gliders are OK. I guess they don’t trust the people to not start WW III by flying 35 miles north of Inchon into North Korea. But, they don’t have the kids who grew up flying (and thinking for themselves) and hanging around airports. They do recruit some kids from college and send then to the US or Australia and get them their tickets. Generally, I had better experience with them than with the ex-Military pilots. This was a surprise to me as I spent years as a Naval Aviator flying fighters after getting my private in light airplanes. I would get experienced F-4, F-5, F-15, and F-16 pilots who were actually terrible pilots if they had to hand fly the aeroplane. It was a shock!
Finally, I’ll get off my box and talk about the total flight hours they claim. I do accept that there are a few talented and free-thinking pilots that I met and trained in Korea.. Some are still in contact and I consider them friends. They were a joy! But, they were few and far between and certainly not the norm.
This is a worldwide problem involving automation and the auto-flight concept. Take one of these new first officers that got his ratings in the US or Australia and came to KAL or Asiana with 225 flight hours. In accordance with their SOP, he calls for the autopilot to be engaged at 250 feet, just after takeoff. How much actual flight time is that? Not even one minute. Then he might fly for hours on the autopilot and finally disengage it (MAYBE?) below 800‚ after the gear was down, flaps extended and on airspeed using the autothrottle. Then he might bring it in to land. Again, how much real “flight timeâ€￾ or real experience did he get. Minutes! Of course, on the 777 or 747, it’ the same only they get more inflated logbooks.

So, when I hear that a 10,000 hour Korean Captain was vectored in for a 17-mile final and cleared for a visual approach in CAVU weather, it raises the hair on the back of my neck.

[Ian Warren]

QUOTE (cowpatz @ Jul 23 2013,6:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting how last night's 'Mayday' programme covered the Korean 747 Cargo crash out of Stanstead. The Captains IRU failed and he kept banking until they hit the deck with 90 degrees of bank. His ADI was showing level whilst the standby and First Officer's ADIs operated normally. Interestingly the F/O did nothing, preferring to die instead of challenging or taking control. This accident was the fifth in a series of accidents that almost revoked their operating certificate into Europe and the US. They underwent a massive change in their training methodology and this required many expats to get involved. Thousands of years of culture is hard to change. This letter has been floating around and seems to suggest that the problem is either still around or has resurfaced.

Has been a long time problem .. arrogance and blame works in every industry .. "do as I say" types .. I stood up to one at General Cable .. a SNOT nosed brat and then - to back me up was a tutor/mentor training me on the job , the dipstick Chris McMeckan run a machine next morn , c0cked it up and decided to place the blame ... on my next shift ... Arr for the paper work and confirm and word with a team leader .. strange that brown nosed fella kept his job .. i had a accident and lost mine .. guess by now he is fully tanned now . -

Something you learn in engineering .. if your not sure .. don't run it .. Steve did you ever see the documentary "The Wrong Stuff" about pilots with that very same arrogance to co-pilots and in a team on the flight deck were one thought he was better than everyone else .

[cowpatz]

Ian I didn't see the documentary but I have run across a few of them over the years. Most of the "problem childs" originated from ex airforce single seaters (but certainly not all). That coupled with the fact many stepped straight into command positions without any time an other seats. A lot of work has been done on CRM (crew resource management) and this has reaped huge dividends. It has been so successful that it has transcended boundaries to become company (or corporate) resource management to take in a whole company.

[Ian Warren]

QUOTE (cowpatz @ Jul 23 2013,7:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ian I didn't see the documentary but I have run across a few of them over the years. Most of the "problem childs" originated from ex airforce single seaters (but certainly not all). That coupled with the fact many stepped straight into command positions without any time an other seats. A lot of work has been done on CRM (crew resource management) and this has reaped huge dividends. It has been so successful that it has transcended boundaries to become company (or corporate) resource management to take in a whole company.

That was most the case's and the prima-donna's - I like that - " Most of the "problem childs" originated from ex airforce single seaters " exactly it .

[Charl]

Yes I saw that letter, now in our connected world the question is being asked: who's flying my plane today?
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8655834...-on-pilots.html

[Ian Warren]

QUOTE (Charl @ Jul 23 2013,8:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes I saw that letter, now in our connected world the question is being asked: who's flying my plane today?

I can give it a go .. from the many accidents were dumbness comes into play , the first question the as Steve and the documentary pointed out ..... what about self preservation !

[cowpatz]

QUOTE (Charl @ Jul 23 2013,7:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes I saw that letter, now in our connected world the question is being asked: who's flying my plane today?
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8655834...-on-pilots.html

Hard case....and if the enquirer ever got the information how would he/she ever be able to decipher and evaluate it all?
43 hours on the 777 is quite a few in training terms. Probably halfway thru the training cycle.
There will always be a first landing with passengers on board and these days that is the first time you hop in the aircraft for real. All the circuits and other aircraft handling is conducted in the simulator.