VR again :)

[Chairman]

So ...... I bought myself a Reverb G2. The first time I put the headset on and materialised in the clifftop house was my first taste of VR and OMFG !!! I won't spoilt the moment for people who haven't had the pleasure by going into detail, most of the amazement was because I had no idea what to expect.

Something had to be played. Didn't matter what, just Something. Had. To. Be. Played.

No Man's Sky was the first thing that I saw on a menu and again, OMFG !!! That took care of day 1.

Day 2 was driving sims - Assetto Corsa, RF2, found that the headset plus my wheel and pedals was, umm, well, my notebook won't run the G2 but I don't ever want to race again without it on my gaming pc.

Day 3 was all about flight sims, and the wheels fell off the whole thing. What a shitshow, the headset was amazing but no sign of the controllers and I'm damned if I'm going to try and fly using a joystick / mouse / keyboard that I can't see. The G2 is one of the most anticipated VR headsets in ages and it has all the same problems the G1 had (and is probably still having) plus a few new ones, rather impressively including that even though the controllers for the G2 are so different to the G1 controllers that they seem completely unrelated, they report the same device ID as the G1 controllers. Good luck sorting that out, any updates to make the G2 controllers work will by definition (literally!) break the G1 controllers. Top decision there HP.

Spent many many hours over 2-3 days bashing through forums and watching youtube videos, one of the most helpful was unfortunately recorded in the VR environment by someone who seemed to have parkinsons of the neck so actually hurt my eyes to watch. But I sort of got there.

Have managed 2 successful flights in xplane so far - both in torquesim addons. I can bring up the radial menus, I can teleport, I can reset the view, I can do the temporary zoom in thing, and most importantly the lasers and triggers work well enough to do everything in the cockpit that needs doing (one of the controllers stopped firing the laser after I changed the scenery setting midflight but I was wise to that game and just used the other hand until that one decided to work again, kind of sums up the whole experience nicely). The planes are leaving a purple trail that I need to find the setting for because it's embarrassing to look at, and I need to try using the traditional yoke because it's just too hard to be precise with the ergonomic, and the resolution is crap after a big 4k monitor, but the immersion ... again, OMFG (I nearly puked at one point when I rolled hard) and again, I don't want to fly locally again without it. Longer flights might revert to the screen once they're in the climb but I don't think you can get back into VR without crashing the sim once you leave ...

What I *really* want is to get it working in P3D where I have (warbirds) better scenery and (warbirds) way more good (warbirds) planes but I gather that P3D is even crapper than Xplane at supporting the G2 so we will see how that goes over the next few days. At least now I have a few clues about what needs assigning !

[SA227]

I have been using my G2 in DCS and it has been awesome. however I do have full HOTAS so don't need the keyboard other than changing ordnance.

Only issue to date is that sometimes if I did not have the headset plugged in when I booted the computer, the view is all screwed up when I start DCS and I find myself sitting head out of the canopy or slightly off to one side. Normally solved by a reboot.

The only other programme I have tried is Real Flight 8 to keep current on radio control flying. The graphics are a bit limited but still enjoy it.

[Chairman]

Well, what can I say ... Whoooooooah is getting a bit overused

I made sure all the important stuff I'd need in flight was mapped to buttons on the joystick or throttle then thrashed the Hotstart TBM around Auckland using the G2 headset, one controller to flip switches for the startup / shutdown, and the stick and throttles - and OMG it was good. Probably the first time I've ever joined a circuit on the downwind anything like properly, and it didn't occur to me until I'd landed that on the turns to base and final my head had been spinning round like a big spinny roundy thing, I've never had situational awareness like it.

Then I got brave and jumped into P3D. Not completely brave, I took the A2A C182 not a taildragging warbird. Took a while to wrap my head around the weird way that P3D does Vr (a big ugly dot (but not as big and ugly as xplanes VR mouse cursor!) that follows your eyepoint or acts as a mouse cursor or vanishes altogether, if you have the right options set you can put it over switches then do whatever you need to with your mouse) and then a while longer to get the damn plane to run (got it the hard way in the end, dang I love A2A) and I was off. The difference between P3D with scenery and Xplane without ... I actually whooped with delight when I took off from NZAR, then chortled with glee when I realised I was following the motorway into town and navigating by recognising the junctions and what was around them. The C182 did feel rather pedestrian after the TBM but I took the last stage of flaps in and it got more respectable, not TBM respectable, but very very nice. Did a lap around the busy end of Waiheke spotting the ferry wharf, Oneroa shops, some of the beaches we used to go to, and OMG our old bach !!! Then back to NZWP flying the proper approach down the side of Herald Island (we used to live there, I lost count of the times I saw everything up to hercs and 727s sliding past at 400 feet) and parked it in front of the fire station with the other GA planes.

So I'm unequivocally sold on VR in flight sim, and on my G2. I'm loving everything about hedge hopping. I see Moths and Cubs in my future. I have better situational awareness than I ever did with a screen, even a 4k screen with TrackIR, and I've NEVER had such a sense of how small the cabins on the GA planes are. Xplane does the controls better, P3D seems more reliable, either is astonishing and provided you use a physical yoke / joystick and have all the essential controls mapped to physical buttons you don't need to look at, either sim will blow your mind when it all finally comes together and works. Eventually I'll get around to trying it in MSFS but for now I'm a very happy and distracted camper

[jpreou]

What is the resolution like? Can you actually read the gauges clearly by glancing at them from your normal seated position, as you would IRL, or do you have to physically lean forward/in and 'get centred' on the gauge to read it. That is the primary reason I didn't go VR when I trialled the Vive Pro many moons ago...

[Chairman]

The resolution is not 4k or even 1080p sharp, but honestly it's way more exciting to have VR at ok resolution than to have an unrealistically sharp picture on a 27" screen on the desk in front of you.

I can read the gauges fine without leaning forward or zooming. The only things I'm zooming for are the fiddly bits like autopilot and GPS / G1000 panels. I can read my phone and books a lot better with glasses on so I think I'd be squinting and leaning in to read those things in a real cockpit, so it actually feels more realistic that I can't see the things I wouldn't expect to. Having said that, really weirdly the 2d panels still pop out if you hit the clickspots so no squinting required - but then you have to (physically) lean sideways to look around the popped out panel to click the popout back into place

[jpreou]

Cheers for that.
And if you want an immersive 'wow' experience, get and play Elite Dangerous!
Even on the Vive Pro (text reading issues aside) that was just awesome.
You can also try 'stepping out' of the cockpit and wing walking at 6000ft over Queenstown - whoooaaa!

[Chairman]

Oooh yes, Elite Dangerous. When I was looking at VR I was thinking flight sim and ED. Getting sidetracked with how amazing it made racing sims was completely unexpected, I haven't gotten around to trying it on ED yet - though I'm really looking forward to core mining and maybe even combat ! And yes, might even take the Stearman for a blat around NZQN

[jpreou]

The sense of scale when you get to a space station in ED, especially the ones you go inside of, is immense - you'll love it

[deeknow]

Great to hear some real world experience, keep the feedback coming, am interested too but have always been put off by the early VR stuff not being up to par or well integrated. One of my workmates has a setup and has been encouraging me to take a peek. I also play NMS so keen to see that now too after reading your post

[jpreou]

I'm pretty keen, but to make the best use of the HP Reverb G2 might require a new PC. 2020 and 21 have not been kind to us, so I don't see VR or a new PC in my foreseeable future. But it is encouraging to see development proceeding and by the time I am 'ready; I'm sure it will then meeting my rather high expectations.
The one thing I'm not sure they will ever 'realistically' solve is the need to interface with hardware you might have - in my case a significant number of Saitek / Logitech modules, fuel tank selector, parking brake, etc... I'd need to buy a decent HOTAS, I think, before seriously considering VR so the 'cost bucket' is increased (VR + PC + HOTAS) - in fact, I'd pretty much be starting from scratch since I also need to purchase MSFS (or whatever is 'it' when all this finally becomes feasible!).
Keep the good info coming though, love reading about it.

[Chairman]

Quick update on where I'm at at the moment ...

General :
Choose a physical button that is never going to move (I use one on my throttle because no matter what I'm doing that never gets moved) and dedicate it for a 'reset VR view' button. You'll need one in every VR game you play, whether you get told you do or not.

Flight Simming :
Amazing IF you like low slow simple VFR. Anything complex, well, stop and ask yourself how do you read a checklist or look at a chart or your notes while you're wearing a VR headset ?
You absolutely need to fly using your usual joystick / yoke / throttle / pedals etc. But no keyboards or streamdecks.
It is necessary to map as much as possible to buttons on your joystick / throttle, and be able to find the right button when you need it without looking.
P3D looks WOW! largely because I have superb scenery and planes for it, I have equally superb planes for XP11 but only default scenery and it shows.
The VR interface in XP11 is what you would expect, I can either select and move switches etc with the lasers, or I can move my "hand" right up to the switch and just move it. I'd be game to try and use a G1000 cockpit in XP11.
The VR interface in P3D works and that's the kindest thing I can say about it, in fact it's the only thing I can say that doesn't include .
I haven't flown MSFS for a couple of months now, couldn't comment about it.

No Mans Sky :
Gets more and more stunning. Some things are harder to do, some things are much more intuitive. You can get away with flying just using the VR controls. I still can't work out the jetpack properly You can see a lot more when you're NOT in VR, but that's normal isn't it - when you watch someone walking down the street you can see a lot more of what's around them than they can.

Driving :
You need your usual wheel / gears / pedals / whatever, and you need to have buttons for the secondary controls (wipers, lights, starter etc) mapped so you can get them without looking for a keyboard. Don't even try to use the controllers, I don't think any of the games I play even see them but I once you're sitting in the car it's too amazing to care.

ED :
Ask me after tonight
Update : The G2 controllers are not supported by ED. The hanger looked good in the headset but as far as I can see ED is like a driving game with the G2, in that it looks amazing but you have to have everything mapped to buttons on your joystick, if you need your keyboard to do anything you're screwed. And I seem to recall (it's been a while) that quite a lot has to be done with the keyboard. During the time I spent sitting in the cockpit of my Python I couldn't even select anything, moving my head around turned the various displays on and off but no way could I select anything, the only way I could make anything happen was to use the keyboard to navigate the highlight cursor to what I wanted and press enter, I tried both mouse options available but couldn't even get a mouse cursor to appear in game, when I found the ESC key on the keyboard it brought up the game menus and the mouse worked fine there, but it doesn't work in game. ED is a big fat scrub for me.
Update 2 : It's a godawful interface, it's worse than P3D. The way to navigate the screens is with the hat switch and trigger on a joystick. And the hat switch has to be set up for this, as does the joystick/throttle for the flight controls, and the galaxy map has to be set up differently (haven't sussed that yet). Now that I'm doing it (can't have played ED since I bought this PC, it was installed but had never been run) I am reminded of ED's cute habit of showing controls being assigned by default but not actually working until you assign the exact same controls again manually. Still, nothing that 6 million credits couldn't fix, and the view of the detention centre as I flew away was pretty stunning. And I bought another sidewinder to make practising crashing a bit cheaper. I managed to find my way to a system that had a proper orbital station, and managed to get to it and autodock. OMG. Just .... OMG. It's painful, but it's definitely not a scrub any more.

[Chairman]

And a couple of notes about the G2, including things that caused confusion while I was checking out reviews (which are mostly of European / Pre-release units)

• On your PC you need USB-C and displayport connections. The headset comes with a cable that fits into a USB-C socket (like the one on the bottom of your smartphone), and adapters to use normal (blue or purple) USB and mini-dp ports. You can't use an HDMI-DP converter, not even an active one. HDMI just doesn't have the grunt to drive the G2.
• In some markets you can buy the full kit or just the headset with no controllers. Pretty sure we can only get the full kit here so don't waste time on that choice
• Early G2 headsets were powered by USB if the PC supported it or the included AC adapter if it didn't. The current models require the adapter, it's no longer optional, and also acts as the on/off switch for the headset.
• There's only one cable to the headset and it's a chunky monkey, much like decent co-ax aerial cable. The USB and DP cables and AC power go into a splitter box about 1.5 metres from the PC, and there's 4-5 metres of cable between that and the headset so you have plenty of scope to dance around hoping nobody is watching.
• The setup allows you to define your play area for standing play so you don't blunder into furniture, and there's a command (reliably voice activated) to let you look through low-res cameras in the hand controllers. You can't see any details but it's enough to let you know where you are and which way you're facing (even sitting in my chair at the desk I managed to turn 180 degrees without realising).
• There's been some moaning about having to leave the cable plugged into the headset once it's been plugged in, but it's not a problem - the headset sits nicely in its box with the controllers on top (all 3 in their cloth bags) and the cable coiled on top. Even room for a battery charger and a bunch of eneloops (2 AA per controller).
• I love it. If you have the money to play with it's totally worth it !

[Chairman]

Well I tried VR in MSFS last night. MSFS is widely known for having the worst VR support of all the flight sims, but it gets away with it because it's so visually stunning. The plan was to take the Justflight Piper Arrow across from NZQN to NZMF, so I chose live weather (because I'm stupid) and just took off with the time set to mid morning and swooped around Queenstown for a few minutes chortling and whooping and gurgling because OMG VR + MSFS + G2 is completely amazeballs then headed off down the lake to cross the Southern Alps. With live weather. In a plane that's not FIKI equipped. At 2 am local time. With NZQN looking for an overnight low on the ground of 3 degrees. With solid cloud all the way from the edge of the lake to the Tasman. In a plane whose only concession to the possibility of icing is pitot heat. Because I'm stupid.

It was the most terrifying time I've ever had in a computer game by a considerable margin. What looked like a way through the clouds turned out not to be and the Arrow got blown around like a piece of fluff in the mountains, didn't matter what I did, more often that not the VSI was pegged at one end or the other and I just tried to stay on average above the fast approaching alps and no more than 45 degrees off course. But I didn't turn around, because it's only a game, and did I mention I'm stupid?

Once I got on top of the Alps the roller coaster settled down slightly and I got on with the serious business of trying to dodge clouds, trying to glimpse the ground often enough to keep track of what "down" meant, and trying to stay within 45 degrees of where I wanted. After a while I spent most of the time staring fixedly ahead trying to work out whether that blur was an alp or the propellor arc, and trying not to see the bits of ground I had to look *up* at, and wondering why on earth is the Attitude Indicator doing THAT??? while catching enough absolutely breathtaking views through the gaps in the clag to make it all worth it.

Then the gaps disappeared. So did the Alps. It was just me, the gps, a VSI like a metronome, an HSI that had obviously been smoking crack, and an AI that was frankly taking the piss. But I couldn't have found the way back - didn't even know which way back was - and I was only a few miles from the coast so I carrieHOLY FREAKING HECK THOSE ARE TREES umm, ok, that means I'm still the right way up, oh, what if they were trees on a cliff ? And that bloody mitre 10 peak is around here somewhere ...

Then everything went white again. See, here's the thing about VR - you don't have the safe comforting context of sitting at a desk watching everything turn to crap on a screen in front of you. You are in the plane, the crap is happening to you, and you can't get out and walk. So I kept going, and the white turned into snow covered hills so close I could have scooped up a snowball, and then everything just went white again, and I was looking with mild interest at the AI wondering what on earth the plane was doing when suddenly the white turned green and I actually screamed and then the plane was upside down in a creek and I took the headset off and collapsed in my chair panting and sweating and swearing I'd never fly with live weather again.

MSFS. Justflight Arrow. Reverb G2. VR. Godly. If you have the cash or a pc with the grunt to do any part of that, do it. Just maybe not with real weather.

[Charl]

So what is it you are doing for RELAXATION these days

MSFS is widely known for having the worst VR

Elaborate?

[Chairman]

MSFS supports the headsets, and the mouse. No controllers. So far the same as p3d, but p3d adds big 3d bubbles when you hover over a clickspot so there's no question about what you're going to click. MSFS just uses the original clickspots, and they're only lined up for the left eye so you tend to end up clicking next to small buttons instead of on them. Also in MSFS clickspots are active at all times. Right clicking or using the mouse wheel to zoom or look around? Better hope you're not over a clickspot...

MSFS VR support will improve, controller support like xplane will happen eventually, but they're still putting bits of the basic sim in place and what's there isn't pretty but it works so it'll be way down the list, but at the moment it's absolutely pants.

But the sim is so jawdroppingly good looking, especially with a top quality add on like the JF Piper, and the immersion of the VR is outstanding when you're not trying to click things, so it gets a tick from me. Will play again. But not with real world weather

[Charl]

December 2021, then... One can't rush these things, coming off AFS2 it will be lightspeed.

[Radar88]

MSFS is widely known for having the worst VR support of all the flight sims

Very subjective a bit harsh sounding since MSFS VR is still in it's infancy given it's only been available since late December 2020 that's 3 months.

If your up with the play you would be following the Developer Q&A Twitch Series: March 10th, 2021

Here's the latest snapshot


What you appear to be bemoaning about is ability to use a VR Headset handheld Controllers, to click and control that use unrealistic laser pointers and teleporting methods for clicks, of the like such as the FlyInside VR add-on software for Microsoft FSX, Prepar3D, and X-Plane.

VR Gloves can already be used as additional controller device in combination with the traditional Flight Yoke and Stick here are some examples using Captoglove that are still being refined in development as Flight Sim developers provide ongoing VR support with improvements as Flight Sims progressively get updated.

Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020 + CaptoGlove in a non-VR enviroment at NZQN

CaptoGlove Tutorial for DCS through SteamVR

Flying in VR with traditional Flight Yoke or HOTAS Stick and Throttle Quadrant like the Honeycomb is all about learning to control your muscle memory to recall the location of the hardware device position, you can liken it similar to how you tie your shoelaces either in the dark or without looking at your shoes.

You maybe interested in watching these VR Flightsim YouTuber's video's.

theVRpilot MSFS VR UK Update - RTX 3090 + Reverb G2! (PHOTOGRAMETRY ON!!!!)

theVRpilot Honeycomb Bravo Throttle Install + First Flight in MSFS VR!

theVRpilot VFR Map for Microsoft Flight Simulator Virtual Reality - Tutorial

VR Flight Sim Guy MSFS Birmingham in VR! Piper Arrow | RTX 3090 Reverb G2

VR Flight Sim Guy MSFS Just Flight Arrow Final Review!

[Chairman]

Yes I'd like to use an unrealistic controller, especially the xp11 way where I can either shoot a laser at a control or reach for it and flick it just like I would with my actual hand, and as I said it's coming. Until then I can live with using an equally unrealistic mouse but I draw the line at putting on a glove (currently unavailable) to replace the mouse / controller and not being able to move my hand without it doing something unwanted. My issues with the way MSFS uses the mouse are that if you want to see exactly where you're going to click you have to close one eye, and that because mouse clicks / scrolls are used for so many different purposes you have to be extremely aware of what is under the mouse cursor when you try to do something. P3D takes a similar approach but handles it so much better. MSFS will get there.

[Chairman]

Spent a couple of hours this evening sitting in a plane not going anywhere, dropping in and out of VR (which I have to say MSFS does far better than either of the others) and playing with the views and I am now so much happier .... Here in no particular order are some things from this learning curve that may help people.

Settings - General - Camera : cockpit zoom speed is turned right up to 100, Instrument view is set to toggle / manual. This way when I manually zoom the view it happens quickly for a good reason which we'll get to, and means instrument views work the way you expect instead of having to hold a button down.

Settings - Controls - View resets (all of them - cockpit, VR, drone, external, etc etc) are set to the space bar, and translate cockpit camera backwards is set to ctrl.

Instrument views - These are the equivalent of the old cockpit camera presets, but the VC camera is not one of them. To use them you have to change into the instrument view system by selecting one of them. I have a joystick button set to select instrument view 2 (generally used for the gps) and others to do next/previous view which is like A / Sh-A, when I'm done I hit the first button again to exit instrument view. You can't just go from the VC to next / prev instrument views, you must start by selecting one of the views either by pressing a button to get into it then again to get out - this is the toggle setting - or by holding a button down and releasing it when you're done.

INSTRUMENT VIEWS WORK IN VR !!!!! and this lets you get your nose hard up against the panel if you want. Same deal in VR as in 2D, select an instrument view then swap between them, exit the instrument view system back to the vc when you're done (view reset is your friend).

THE CAMERA TRANSLATE CONTROLS WORK IN VR, YOU CAN MOVE THAT SUCKER ANYWHERE YOU WANT. Instrument views in VR will put you uncomfortably close to the panel. You can't zoom in a VR cockpit, and you can't zoom in an instrument view, but you can absolutely move the camera. Use a key you can easily find - I use CTRL, so to use a gps in VR I hit the button on my stick to get hard up against the gps then tap the bottom left key on my keyboard to back off a bit. This has completely solved the issue of not being able to see the gps well enough to program it. I'd be happy to use a GTN or FMC or G1000 this way in VR with the mouse.

There is another set of definable cameras for the custom cockpit views, it works the same way as instrument views. If you were keen you could set up custom views for all the panels you want to see on the angles you'd be looking at them from the pilots seat (and at a comfortable distance ) and use those instead of the instrument views. I didn't bother.

Zooming - forget where I stumbled over this trick, but if you change the settings for cockpit zoom from mouse wheel to clicked mouse wheel then (1) you have to press the mouse wheel as well as scroll it to zoom which is why you want a fast zoom, you can only get about a quarter of a turn on the wheel at a time, and (2) you are no longer using the scroll wheel to zoom so you can't accidentally turn knobs while you zoom.

Working all this out has totally transformed my view of MSFS and VR.

[Chairman]

And this is my problem with the clickspots in MSFS VR - through the headset the pointer was on the green button but when I clicked it nothing happened because the actual mouse cursor position is the one on the left screen which is nowhere near the green button, to click the button I had to close my right eye so I could only see the correct pointer. It's exaggerated here because I'm close to the panel but if you have small switches close to each other - like the battery/alt switches in a cessna - this is a problem even when you're backed off. This is why I like the way P3D puts a bubble over the switch when you mouse over it, it looks horrible but there's no mistaking where the mouse is.