New Non Stop Service

[Aharon]

Shalom and greetings all my pals,

Just saw an advertisement by Air New Zealand announcing new in manner of first time non stop service from KJFK to NZAA starting on September 17, 2022

Wondering what plane they will use and how long the trip be!!

And wondering if any real life Air New Zealand pilot right here on NZFF forums will be pilot for new non stop service

Regards,

Aharon

[Naki]

787-9s will be used on this route.

[SUBS17]

They should visit Boeing and get the new technology including FLY BY WIRE and AUTOPILOT which dampens turbulence to nothing.
There is a lot of good technology coming to the AEROSPACE INDUSTRY. They may someday get a HYPERSONIC AIRLINER which could cover that distance in 45 minutes. Of course it would be a VTOL AIRLINER.
Oops looks like a new PATENT is due.

[Aharon]

787-9s will be used on this route.

This is very strange. That plane has range of 7,635 nautical mile and the non stop flight from KJFK to NZAA is 7,730 nautical miles.

Am I missing something??

Regards,

Aharon

[cowpatz]

787-9s will be used on this route.

This is very strange. That plane has range of 7,635 nautical mile and the non stop flight from KJFK to NZAA is 7,730 nautical miles.

Am I missing something??

Regards,

Aharon

They had hoped to have had the GE engine powered 787s (more efficient) before that route started but they have been delayed. Full fuel and the payload will be decided upon on the day. It wont be full and will have either very little or no cargo. Flight time on that sector will be around 17hrs and 30 mins. It will be a challenging operation.
I will try to avoid that duty like the plague. I'm hoping to be back on the 777 before it starts.

[Aharon]

Cowpatz,

Thanks for interesting explanations I am still having hard time trying to figure out or understanding how 787-9 can be used in that route especially if it will be NOT full passenger load and no or little cargo, it means NO profits or good revenue for Air New Zealand unless the airline charges ultra premium price for that route the same way airlines charge for routes to london City airport or the same way British Airways uses 45 passengers in Airbus plane for that london city airport from KJFK using ultra premium prices .

Correct??

Regards,

Aharon

[cowpatz]

Yes that is correct Aharon.
The aircraft is being configured to have a lot more business and premium economy seating and I guess there will be a premium fare to match as well.
Ironically this configuration leads to other problems too as the premium seats are heavier and located at the front. The trim of the aircraft is super critical, especially at high weights, and without cargo to move around, will make it very challenging.

[jpreou]

Yes that is correct Aharon.
The aircraft is being configured to have a lot more business and premium economy seating and I guess there will be a premium fare to match as well.
Ironically this configuration leads to other problems too as the premium seats are heavier and located at the front. The trim of the aircraft is super critical, especially at high weights, and without cargo to move around, will make it very challenging.

Will it have high weights though? Surely the whole point of reduced premium seating is lower weight / less fuel required (more lowered weight) and/or increased range?

[cowpatz]

It's a balancing act. More premium seating equals higher yield versus higher weight of seats (more so biz class).
I figure the starting point will be full tanks and then the payload calculated to obtain the distance. The MACTOW will need to be within a tight range of 5% approx

[cowpatz]

They should visit Boeing and get the new technology including FLY BY WIRE and AUTOPILOT which dampens turbulence to nothing.
There is a lot of good technology coming to the AEROSPACE INDUSTRY. They may someday get a HYPERSONIC AIRLINER which could cover that distance in 45 minutes. Of course it would be a VTOL AIRLINER.
Oops looks like a new PATENT is due.

The 787 is already fly by wire and also has autopilot turbulence algorithms to dampen oscillations. It would take a very strong structure if the effects of turbulence were to be reduced to "nothing"

[jpreou]

It's a balancing act. More premium seating equals higher yield versus higher weight of seats (more so biz class).
I figure the starting point will be full tanks and then the payload calculated to obtain the distance. The MACTOW will need to be within a tight range of 5% approx

I guess from a route perspective, the last portion is over the US landmass, so if there is an issue, as long as you have made the west coast you at least have diversion options - unless the images I saw I have mis-interpreted.

[SUBS17]

They should visit Boeing and get the new technology including FLY BY WIRE and AUTOPILOT which dampens turbulence to nothing.
There is a lot of good technology coming to the AEROSPACE INDUSTRY. They may someday get a HYPERSONIC AIRLINER which could cover that distance in 45 minutes. Of course it would be a VTOL AIRLINER.
Oops looks like a new PATENT is due.

The 787 is already fly by wire and also has autopilot turbulence algorithms to dampen oscillations. It would take a very strong structure if the effects of turbulence were to be reduced to "nothing"

There is a new FLY BY WIRE and a new Navigation System which also includes BIRD STRIKE PREVENTION. The new FLY BY WIRE works with HIGHLY ACCURATE NAVIGATION SYSTEM combined the two can reduce Turbulence to nothing. It will be a smooth ride for everyone onboard. The aircraft using that system can also AUTO PILOT-LAND, AUTO PILOT-TAXI, AUTO PILOT CRUISE and AUTO PILOT TAKE OFF. The same system is being tested for AUTOMATIC INFLIGHT REFUELLING and it is very good. The new FLY BY WIRE for the Boeing 787 also features the CESSNA SUBMODE in the FLY BY WIRE CODING.
There are no ALGORITHMS IN FLY BY WIRE, ALGORITHMS are for ORBITAL CALCULATIONS ONLY. You do not use ALGORITHMS for FLY BY WIRE! People speak of ALGORITHMS for Cell Phones etc but they are tables for Space Travel for Orbit only. ALGORITHM is a MATHEMATICAL FORMULA.

[jpreou]

Can you provide links to all these? Sounds like an interesting read...

[cowpatz]

There are no ALGORITHMS IN FLY BY WIRE, ALGORITHMS are for ORBITAL CALCULATIONS ONLY. You do not use ALGORITHMS for FLY BY WIRE! People speak of ALGORITHMS for Cell Phones etc but they are tables for Space Travel for Orbit only. ALGORITHM is a MATHEMATICAL FORMULA.

If you are referring to "fly by wire" as being the old physical wire then yes, you would be correct. However in a digital "fly by wire system" there is most definitely algorithms taking place within the Primary Flight Computers.
They are constantly fed with both digital and analogue data and use prescribed algorithms to produced a desired output.
I would genuinely be interested to see any reference material you might have to support that with which you have stated in this series of replies to the the OP.

[Aharon]

Cowpatz,

Thanks for your more interesting explanations and for confirming my guessing or theory about less passengers for more higher airfare prices.

I sure hope that CEO of Air New Zealand is lurking around here in the NZFF forums because I have suggestion for him on how to make nonstop KJFK to NZAA route more profitable. Instead of using 787-9 with fewer passengers and higher air fare prices, I would suggest that Air New Zealand should lease two or three Boeing 777-200lrs from Delta airline and use those for the new non stop route while maintaining full passenger load (NOT fewer) that results into good revenues and profits. Whenever I fly into KATl Atlanta airport, I always see few Delta 777-200lrs parked in cargo aprons doing nothing so I am sure Delta would be more than happy to lease those planes to Air New Zealand.

777-200lr can easily handle range of KJFK to NZAA and will have about 800 nautical mile extra of remaining fuel for emergency since the plane has 8,550 nautical mile range and the route is 7,730 nautical miles

Problem solved

Regards,

Aharon

[SUBS17]

There are no ALGORITHMS IN FLY BY WIRE, ALGORITHMS are for ORBITAL CALCULATIONS ONLY. You do not use ALGORITHMS for FLY BY WIRE! People speak of ALGORITHMS for Cell Phones etc but they are tables for Space Travel for Orbit only. ALGORITHM is a MATHEMATICAL FORMULA.

If you are referring to "fly by wire" as being the old physical wire then yes, you would be correct. However in a digital "fly by wire system" there is most definitely algorithms taking place within the Primary Flight Computers.
They are constantly feed with both digital and analogue data and use prescribed algorithms to produced a desired output.
I would genuinely be interested to see any reference material you might have to support that with which you have stated in this series of replies to the the OP.

There is no Algorithms in FLY BY WIRE, the FLY BY WIRE CODING is the same but newer FLY BY WIRE has more SUBMODES. An example is tight turning where the FLY BY WIRE makes the aircraft turn extremely tight with efficient use of the surface controls. Normally an airliner takes miles to do a U-turn. With FLY BY WIRE they can turn tighter which can be observed in You tube videos. AN226 has FLY BY WIRE that can do this. For such a big aircraft it can turn with in visual range of the people on a runway. For new FLY BY WIRE Airlines and the RNZAF have to talk to Boeing. The latest version is still being tested and when it is good to go people will find it brilliant to use particularly on approach. The CESSNA SUBMODE is new and it pitches the aircraft with subtle throttle inputs on final which is good for adjusting ANGLE OF ATTACK. The FLY BY WIRE also holds ANGLE OF ATTACK on APPROACH with the AUTO-THROTTLE and MANUAL ADJUSTMENTS of PITCH/ROLL/YAW can be made without losing ANGLE OF ATTACK. It maintains it so long as it is within parameters. For more information you would have to talk to Boeing, it is being tested on a C17 and there is no Turbulence. The pilots also have a Helmet and Airline Pilots will also have a similar helmet that has a Helmet Mounted Display.
The Helmets are custom made and are for the individual pilot, they get to keep them and there is no wires.

[jpreou]

I can't see Airline pilots wearing a helmet long haul; no chance.
Please link to the videos you reference. Keen to see in action.

[cowpatz]

Cowpatz,

I sure hope that CEO of Air New Zealand is lurking around here in the NZFF forums because I have suggestion for him on how to make nonstop KJFK to NZAA route more profitable. Instead of using 787-9 with fewer passengers and higher air fare prices, I would suggest that Air New Zealand should lease two or three Boeing 777-200lrs from Delta airline and use those for the new non stop route while maintaining full passenger load (NOT fewer) that results into good revenues and profits. Whenever I fly into KATl Atlanta airport, I always see few Delta 777-200lrs parked in cargo aprons doing nothing so I am sure Delta would be more than happy to lease those planes to Air New Zealand.

777-200lr can easily handle range of KJFK to NZAA and will have about 800 nautical mile extra of remaining fuel for emergency since the plane has 8,550 nautical mile range and the route is 7,730 nautical miles

The aircraft they need is probably the A350-1000. Not that I am a Bus fan. I'm surprised that Airbus hasn't come knocking on the door with a "have we got a deal for you" and traded Air NZ's longhaul fleet.

[cowpatz]

There are no ALGORITHMS IN FLY BY WIRE, ALGORITHMS are for ORBITAL CALCULATIONS ONLY.

I beg to differ.

algorithm
/ˈalɡərɪð(ə)m/
noun
noun: algorithm; plural noun: algorithms

a process or set of rules to be followed in calculations or other problem-solving operations, especially by a computer.
"a basic algorithm for division"

Seems clear to me that this is what the PFCs are doing.

[SUBS17]

I beg to differ.

algorithm
/ˈalɡərɪð(ə)m/
noun
noun: algorithm; plural noun: algorithms

a process or set of rules to be followed in calculations or other problem-solving operations, especially by a computer.
"a basic algorithm for division"

Seems clear to me that this is what the PFCs are doing.

Sure for a dictionary but an actual fact in regard to FLY BY WIRE ALGORITHMS are tables and they are used for AEROSPACE FLY BY WIRE such as the Capsules that fly to ISS. ALGORITHMS have nothing to do with FLY BY WIRE CODING for Airliners. With ALGORITHMS it is ORBIT and catching that Orbit takes absolute precision.
With ALGORITHMS that people constantly mention in regard to Apps, those are not ALGORITHMS those are Programs. If it is not ORBIT, then it is not an ALGORITHM. If you recall at school Log Tables, ALGORITHMS are Tables like that only much bigger. And those Tables were Created by 2 test Pilots who are well known as Astronauts. That includes Cosine, Sine and Tan Log Books. That is a lot of Maths creating those Tables.